the bulgarians and romanians

[TIGHTCHOKE]

O.R.

 

Unfortunately "WE" have learned very little and I feel that inevitabely we will see the massive influx of the great unwashed!

 

T.C.

Edited April 24, 2013 by TIGHTCHOKE

[al4x]

Hasn't Cameron been battling with everybody to make sure they don't qualify for housing or benefits for a good few years after moving here? He is even getting stick about limiting state handouts to 26K that is ridiculous that you can get that kind of money whether UK born and bred or an immigrant and is where the issue lies it shouldn't be worth more to live on handouts than go to work.

 

The issue is how you restrict movement of people in Europe when on one hand a lot of brits enjoy the freedom to move within europe we just don't want anyone else to have the same rights. The French and Spanish have been ****** for years about people retiring to their countries and pushing up property prices

[aris]

By EU law, we have to treat all EU citizens like a UK citizen. We can't differentiate. Any party (bar UKIP) can say anything they want - but they can't do anything about it.

 

I'm wondering how many UK citizens on benefits right now have paid into the system. Sure some may have, but i'm also sure there is a large proportion who have not. I also think that a vast majority are taking out of the system more than they have put in.

 

I think the whole benefits system has to change - for everyone, not just migrants.

 

1) You must have paid into the system to get something out of it

2) There should be a limit of what you can get out of it - either monetary, or a time limit. This business of being on benefits for your whole life is BS.

3) State subsidised housing and wages needs to stop. Not overnight, but slowly over time pay needs to equalise with the real cost of living. Subsidising rents and wages just keeps rents high, and wages low as they know somebody else will be paying for them. If it means a higher minimum wage - then OK, but that must be counter balanced with a freeze or lowering of benefits for those in work.

[old rooster]

By EU law, we have to treat all EU citizens like a UK citizen. We can't differentiate. Any party (bar UKIP) can say anything they want - but they can't do anything about it.

 

I'm wondering how many UK citizens on benefits right now have paid into the system. Sure some may have, but i'm also sure there is a large proportion who have not. I also think that a vast majority are taking out of the system more than they have put in.

 

I think the whole benefits system has to change - for everyone, not just migrants.

 

1) You must have paid into the system to get something out of it

2) There should be a limit of what you can get out of it - either monetary, or a time limit. This business of being on benefits for your whole life is BS.

3) State subsidised housing and wages needs to stop. Not overnight, but slowly over time pay needs to equalise with the real cost of living. Subsidising rents and wages just keeps rents high, and wages low as they know somebody else will be paying for them. If it means a higher minimum wage - then OK, but that must be counter balanced with a freeze or lowering of benefits for those in work.

Largely agree with your views on making benefits only payable to those who have paid in, the frightening thing is that their are whole families out there who have never contributed a single penny over a number of generations. They have been led to believe that it is a right to proliferate at the expense of those who do work. As a net contributor over the past 42 years I absolutely resent the redistribution of my wealth to the less well off when those people enjoy a very good lifestyle with a wealth of free time to enjoy it.

 

As the wealth creators gradually wander off to places that have an ethos more in line with theirs the burden of providing the cash to fund he feckless falls on a smaller number of working people and that is very wrong!

[aris]

Largely agree with your views on making benefits only payable to those who have paid in, the frightening thing is that their are whole families out there who have never contributed a single penny over a number of generations. They have been led to believe that it is a right to proliferate at the expense of those who do work. As a net contributor over the past 42 years I absolutely resent the redistribution of my wealth to the less well off when those people enjoy a very good lifestyle with a wealth of free time to enjoy it.

 

As the wealth creators gradually wander off to places that have an ethos more in line with theirs the burden of providing the cash to fund he feckless falls on a smaller number of working people and that is very wrong!

 

Agreed - as Thatcher put it - "eventually you run out of other peoples money".

 

This immigration debate may well be the catalyst which changes how benefits are perceived and distributed for all - but I think i'm being too optimistic.

 

As far as i'm concerned, state benefits should be a a basic safety net that ensures that you're not living on the street or go hungry. It doesn't give you the right to a lifestyle you had before, or a lifestyle similar to those in work. If you want that, then you need to buy insurance.

[955i]

There are hundreds of illegal Indians round here, most work in the buildings for about £25 a day. Everybody knows who they are and where they are but the authorities can't send them home because they have destroyed their paperwork and the Indian Government won't accept them back without proof of who they are.

 

So everybody just ignores them, DSS, HMRC, Border Agency don't want to know.

 

This is about five miles from where I live

 

While I can see why they have done it, trying to make a better life, I can't really believe these people have the gall to moan about a situation of their own doing and the fact that they are being 'undercut' by new illegal immigrants.

 

Makes me wonder if any tried LEGITIMATE ways to get into the UK first, and if so, why they were turned down.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

We're doomed!

Edited April 24, 2013 by TIGHTCHOKE

[955i]

The issue is how you restrict movement of people in Europe when on one hand a lot of brits enjoy the freedom to move within europe we just don't want anyone else to have the same rights.

I don't think that is true, people from here travelling through Europe generally do it on their own funds or because work takes them there.

 

I for one have no issue with anyone travelling in Europe including the UK as long as they can:

 

1) Pay their way if they are just travelling, and

 

2) Be a useful, productive and legal member of the community once they get here, paying tax and everything else we are expected to. If they are just here for a free ride then no, I don't think they have the right to travel to the UK

[oscarsdad]

Stop the benefits, make the bone idle British layabouts work (or let them starve) and we won't need the migrants to do the jobs. We have all the people we need already. Employ a British person at the moment and he is just begging you to sack him so he can get back on the dole. With no dole its shape up and work or starve. If they don't like the job they can make themselves more employable and try to get a better one.

Totally agree...if you want benefits and can work, then you should be made to. Can't be bothered to work? Then starve. I couldn't give a monkeys...then we could break the cycle of the career benefit claimant lifestyle families ("grandad is 32 and he has never worked so why should I have to work?" Etc). It is about time those of us who work hard and pay tax were the better off, not those on benefits. You should not be able to afford sky tv or foreign holidays or cigarettes, a life on benefits should be the bare minimum to survive and if you want any luxuries, get a job.

[old rooster]

Quite so! Try getting free medical help while in another poor EU country, try getting benefits, free housing etc.etc.

 

It doesn't happen because by and large it doesn't happen for their own people, hence the attraction of moving to our over liberal country.

 

Whoops, was supposed to be a reply to post #58

Edited April 24, 2013 by old rooster

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Quite so! Try getting free medical help while in another poor EU country, try getting benefits, free housing etc.etc.

 

It doesn't happen because by and large it doesn't happen for their own people, hence the attraction of moving to our over liberal country.

 

 

Nail/ head!

[oscarsdad]

I have said it before and sometime in jest but I still think we should be using those on benefits for power generation...

 

You only get your benefits / food tokens if you have generated the required kW of electricity in one of my workhouses. You can choose whether you go on the exercise bike, rowing machine etc and you can generate the required power as quickly as you like (therefore getting more free time) but must complete it within the 8 hour shift.

 

This will therefore help with carbon emissions and global warming, greatly reduce the levels of obesity, provide us with cheaper energy and most importantly get rid of the overinflated sense of entitlement which the parasitic underclass have developed....if you don't like exercise, get a job where you don't have to generate power.

[flynny]

Agreed - as Thatcher put it - "eventually you run out of other peoples money".

 

This immigration debate may well be the catalyst which changes how benefits are perceived and distributed for all - but I think i'm being too optimistic.

 

As far as i'm concerned, state benefits should be a a basic safety net that ensures that you're not living on the street or go hungry. It doesn't give you the right to a lifestyle you had before, or a lifestyle similar to those in work. If you want that, then you need to buy insurance.

What an excellent reply mate,

 

HERE, HERE

 

ATB

 

Flynny

[old rooster]

All very worrying stuff! We have been pretty poorly served by governments over the past 20 years which has allowed the slide into acceptance of the unacceptable, a big hill for anyone to climb to bring things back to reality.

 

I think a dip in the Aegean is called for to bring back a sense of balance.

 

Toodle pip for now.

[overandunder2012]

just a thought but for benefits to be reduced/stopped first they must make it possible for a working man to get a minimum wage that he can afford to pay all his bills, in days gone by when a man worked his wages didnt have to cover anything like the charges we have today and i believe rents where a far lower percentage of a mans wages. having said that people want more these days than in the past as the modern world offers so much more and many would always live beyond their means. when alls said and done realisticly before the government can get people "back to work" they need to have some form of industries that can support a couple of million new workers. if there are no jobs for "british claimants" to go to there is a danger it would become a expensive paper shuffling exercise with no end result. another reason i doubt the government would just stop benefits is that its doubtful they want large poverty stricken crime ridden areas that are far worse than what we have now as it would look bad on a developed country and an expensive problem. the other problem is for business owners they will be presented by the job center a long list of people who do not want the job will do as little as poss if they get the job some are long term criminals and or drug users and the business owners struggling already in some cases, how keen will he be to take on more trouble?.

 

the benefit culture is indeed a complex problem as its now all up to 3 generations of some familys know and its now seen as normal in parts of society and restricting new overseas claimants is definitely a step in the right direction as we may not be able to fix the problem in the short term but we can stop it getting any worse as more and more of europe becomes eligible to come here a rethink is in order.

 

it should also be remembered there are genuinely sick people out there that do need help some of whom will be effected very badly with cuts, the sick should be cared for some were good workers before coming ill.

[aris]

Nobody is saying that the genuinely ill should not get help - but at the same time, benefits are not there to pay for Sky, or foreign holidays. They are there to provide the basics - a roof over your head, and food in your stomach. If you are expecting anything more than that, then get insurance.

 

I think alot of these inter-generational benefits families just don't know any better and they need a dose of tough-love.

 

Same for girls who get pregnant with the view of getting a council house, and benefits. I think they should live at home with mum and dad. Perhaps they will think twice about their reproductive options.

 

It's not a quick fix situation - it may take a generation, but someone in government needs to get off their backside and take some tough decisions. Somehow I don't see that happening at all. The Tories are making some moves with regards to this - but it will just end up being a ping-pong as to what happens with each successive government. I can quite easily see the next government being a Labour-LibDem coalition. In which case we're doomed.

[flynny]

Nobody is saying that the genuinely ill should not get help - but at the same time, benefits are not there to pay for Sky, or foreign holidays. They are there to provide the basics - a roof over your head, and food in your stomach. If you are expecting anything more than that, then get insurance.

 

I think alot of these inter-generational benefits families just don't know any better and they need a dose of tough-love.

 

Same for girls who get pregnant with the view of getting a council house, and benefits. I think they should live at home with mum and dad. Perhaps they will think twice about their reproductive options.

 

It's not a quick fix situation - it may take a generation, but someone in government needs to get off their backside and take some tough decisions. Somehow I don't see that happening at all. The Tories are making some moves with regards to this - but it will just end up being a ping-pong as to what happens with each successive government. I can quite easily see the next government being a Labour-LibDem coalition. In which case we're doomed.

Another great reply,

 

An Aris and old rooster coalition would work,

 

ATB

 

Flynny

[Penelope]

I feel that if the Tories had got solely in power more would have been done, Ian Duncan Smith has the right ideas, but I feel they are held back by LibDem sentimentality.

 

Nobody is saying that the genuinely ill should not get help - but at the same time, benefits are not there to pay for Sky, or foreign holidays. They are there to provide the basics - a roof over your head, and food in your stomach. If you are expecting anything more than that, then get insurance.

 

I think alot of these inter-generational benefits families just don't know any better and they need a dose of tough-love.

 

Same for girls who get pregnant with the view of getting a council house, and benefits. I think they should live at home with mum and dad. Perhaps they will think twice about their reproductive options.

 

It's not a quick fix situation - it may take a generation, but someone in government needs to get off their backside and take some tough decisions. Somehow I don't see that happening at all. The Tories are making some moves with regards to this - but it will just end up being a ping-pong as to what happens with each successive government. I can quite easily see the next government being a Labour-LibDem coalition. In which case we're doomed.

[overandunder2012]

Nobody is saying that the genuinely ill should not get help - but at the same time, benefits are not there to pay for Sky, or foreign holidays. They are there to provide the basics - a roof over your head, and food in your stomach. If you are expecting anything more than that, then get insurance.

 

I think alot of these inter-generational benefits families just don't know any better and they need a dose of tough-love.

 

Same for girls who get pregnant with the view of getting a council house, and benefits. I think they should live at home with mum and dad. Perhaps they will think twice about their reproductive options.

 

It's not a quick fix situation - it may take a generation, but someone in government needs to get off their backside and take some tough decisions. Somehow I don't see that happening at all. The Tories are making some moves with regards to this - but it will just end up being a ping-pong as to what happens with each successive government. I can quite easily see the next government being a Labour-LibDem coalition. In which case we're doomed.

agreed 100% the governments need to address it, all im saying is that they do need to also look at how they are going to create jobs for the claimants to go to as i think the problem is more complex than just stopping benefits. bottom line for me is benefits should not make you better of than a job but there must be more industry/employment if they are to ever stop the benefits culture..

Edited April 24, 2013 by overandunder2012

[AVB]

It's very easy to blame the Governments but people have to take some accountability for this. The same as blaming the Banks for the Financial Crisis. Yes they were partly to blame but collectively we all stretched ourselves too much.

 

Likewise with Benefits. You claim the Government for making it too easy but if we were all accountable for our own and actions didn't look for the easy option (such as claiming sickness benefit when they could work) all of the time (and I know there a lot of people on here who do try to do the right thing) then again we would be in a better place.

 

Finally, if you believe that this is just caused by immigration then if you also believe in market forces then it will all sort itself out. We will bankrupt ourselves, be unable to pay any benefits to anybody and the migrants will move to the next country that they can pillage. Look what is happening in Spain. It's busted and the number of migrants has fallen.

 

Ah if life was that simple.

[aris]

agreed 100% the governments need to address it, all im saying is that they do need to also look at how they are going to create jobs for the claimants to go to as i think the problem is more complex than just stopping benefits. bottom line for me is benefits should not make you better of than a job but there must be more industry/employment if they are to ever stop the benefits culture..

 

If a million migrants are able to find work, then i''m guessing the work is there. But if benefits are an option for the same money, then which would you choose? The benefit cap has apparently already shown some success in getting people into work - perhaps the next step is to freeze benefits, and let inflation slowly finish the job.

[Penelope]

It has indeed done so apparently. Funny that.

 

If a million migrants are able to find work, then i''m guessing the work is there. But if benefits are an option for the same money, then which would you choose? The benefit cap has apparently already shown some success in getting people into work - perhaps the next step is to freeze benefits, and let inflation slowly finish the job.

[al4x]

the issue is there is only one party that will clobber benefits and they are doing what they can while they have a lib dem noose round their necks. Sadly we are doomed as too many are there to gain from Labour getting the gravy train rolling again and too many believing that idiot Farage has a credible answer and voting labour by default.

[overandunder2012]

If a million migrants are able to find work, then i''m guessing the work is there. But if benefits are an option for the same money, then which would you choose? The benefit cap has apparently already shown some success in getting people into work - perhaps the next step is to freeze benefits, and let inflation slowly finish the job.

a very good point but there is far more than 1 million claimants so some job creation must be needed.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

If only this wonderful country of OURS wasn't so damned inviting to all and sundry!