To adjust or not to adjust?

[mrmints]

I have a Hatsan Escort which I've started to pattern test.

 

I've trying to this as realistically as possible, that is, quickly mounting the gun and shooting within a second or two. I am consistently below and to the left. Do I use the shim kits that come with the gun or do I learn to shoot above and to the right?

 

I am shooting with both eyes open, with a fraction of a squint in the left.

 

One thing that is holding me back with tinkering with the shims is the fact that when I have had instruction (probably had three or four hours worth now) I am able to fairly well. This could just be because the instructor is saying, "you were just behind that one" or "aim a bit higher and you'll get it". However, when I go out on the clays alone, I miss significant amounts. The same with the pigeons, I generally only get stuff thats pretty close, to the point that I'm not going back out to do anymore decoying until I am really consistent on clays.

[bigman]

Fit the shims and see if it improves ,

I did have the same trouble as you are having with my escort , I ended up buying a o/ u and things just getting better and better I feel more confident with the o/u it just feels better to use

[mickmep]

cant see the point of having the shims and not using them.

i wouldnt want to shoot with a gun that i knew wasnt shooting where i was looking.

 

after you've learnt and had lessons with a gun that doesnt shoot where you're looking and you buy a gun that does

are you going to have it adjusted so it doesnt fit as well ?

[mrmints]

In that case, do I lower or raise?

 

My gut tells me to lower the stock so my eye is lower and therefore the gun will shoot higher....

[wymberley]

In that case, do I lower or raise?

 

My gut tells me to lower the stock so my eye is lower and therefore the gun will shoot higher....

To be honest, I started to be concerned before the end of Post #1. This one (above) has added to the doubt. Have you asked your coach what his qualifications are?

 

If you RAISE your eye, you'll shoot higher; LOWER it and you can't see what the hell you're doing.

[Underdog]

Your eye is the rear sight so it needs to be higher than now and to the right so the stock needs casting off also, away from you some.

 

 

Mount the gun on an imaginary bird with your eyes shut, swing through and then open your eyes and note what you see of the barrel/rib.

 

Do the same after adjustment.

 

U.

[wymberley]

Your eye is the rear sight so it needs to be higher than now and to the right so the stock needs casting off also, away from you some.

 

 

Mount the gun on an imaginary bird with your eyes shut, swing through and then open your eyes and note what you see of the barrel/rib.

 

Do the same after adjustment.

 

U.

Yep, unless the possible lack of vision with the right eye is forcing the left to do the work (ie, becoming dominant if effect) which will cause the gun to shoot to the left - although the slight squint may (or may not) prevent this. In which case, raising the comb might just overcome both of the errors.

[The Essex Hunter]

I have a Hatsan Escort which I've started to pattern test.

 

I've trying to this as realistically as possible, that is, quickly mounting the gun and shooting within a second or two. I am consistently below and to the left. Do I use the shim kits that come with the gun or do I learn to shoot above and to the right?

 

I am shooting with both eyes open, with a fraction of a squint in the left.

 

One thing that is holding me back with tinkering with the shims is the fact that when I have had instruction (probably had three or four hours worth now) I am able to fairly well. This could just be because the instructor is saying, "you were just behind that one" or "aim a bit higher and you'll get it". However, when I go out on the clays alone, I miss significant amounts. The same with the pigeons, I generally only get stuff thats pretty close, to the point that I'm not going back out to do anymore decoying until I am really consistent on clays.

 

Are you left or right handed for a start?

 

TEH

[wymberley]

Are you left or right handed for a start?

 

TEH

I think squinting with the left eye is a clue

[station]

I think squinting with the left eye is a clue

Good answer !

[mrmints]

Thanks for the helpful comments guys. I should have guessed that logically thinking my way through it would lead me astray!

 

Stock raised...will be back to the pattern plate tomorrow to see if there is any improvement.

[The Essex Hunter]

I think squinting with the left eye is a clue

 

 

Sorry to say but since my Dad went blind in his right eye, and being right handed he has no choice but to use his left!

But he still try’s a little shooting as he loves it so much, he can hit a few clays when I take him, I have to hand that to him as I learnt all my shooting from him….

 

 

 

TEH

[Lord Geordie]

It also depends if you are left or right eye dominant?

 

Simple test is "keeping both eyes open, point at an object! Then close your left eye! If your finger is still pointing straight at the object you are right eye dominant.

 

If your not pointing at the object then repeat the process and close your right eye! See if you are then pointing straight at the object. If you are you are left eye dominant.

 

Now. If your right eye dominant! When at the pattern board place a target on it. Make sure your gun is empty, then bring it to your shoulder with both eyes open and point it at the target without thinking about it.

 

Now close your left eye and see where your barrel is ACTUALLY pointing! Low, high, etc?

 

Your gun should naturally come to rest on your shoulder and line up if it is a good fit for you. Failing that try your spacers and shims to see if you can improve the fit. Your sight picture should be a flat rib when using many auto's and shooting sporting.

 

If your cheek is rolling over the stock you may need a comb raiser fitted.

 

Making adjustments to the way YOU hold the gun is not going to work. Each time you mount it to your shoulder it's going to be different. Hence having it fit naturally as that way each time you will be bringing it up perfectly without even thinking about it.

 

A good clay coach should be able to give you all the info and help you need.

[mrmints]

Hum...no noticable change in the height of the pattern, but the change to the cast seems to have done the job. The kit only came with one shim to raise the stock by 5mm, so I've asked my RFD to order in a couple more.

 

Before I put the shim in, I aimed about 6" higher than the centre of my patterning paper and the pattern was much better, maybe 40% above, 60% below. If I aim in the centre of my pattern it's more like 5% above!

 

I'm doing this testing at 40yards using a number of different cartridges.

Edited May 14, 2013 by mrmints

[wymberley]

I would suggest that you're doing too much at once. Of course it is possible to do gun fit and a pattern test at once but if you're having a problem with one or the other or, indeed, both, it's better to sort one out at a time.

 

If you can hit the plate, albeit even by aiming off, I'd be inclined to carry on and pattern the gun, choosing the cartridge that gives the best quality pattern for the choke density that you're looking for and which are readily available to you. Hopefully you won't have to compromise too much in order to achieve all three. Just do it properly - 6 shots from a previously fired barrel and do not discard any just because you don't like the look of it and deduce the average from the 6. From these you should also get a fair assessment of the relationship between your pattern centre and point of aim.

 

Once you are satisfied that the gun is doing what you want it to, then you can start again with the shims and get it to do what you want it to where you want it to do it. There are no shortcuts.

[Underdog]

Make a shim!

 

U.

[mickmep]

assuming you now want to raise the comb why not just buy a comb raiser kit ?

i don't know about the hatsan, but every semi i've got you only put one shim in at a time, and most you have to use the corresponding stock washer.

[mrmints]

Well the hatsan was supplied with three shims, two of which were for lowering (both -5mm) and one for raising (+5mm) so I'm assuming that I should at least be able to put one more +5mm in. I'm not sure about changing the stock washer, it wasn't supplied with any, other than the one in the gun.

 

I plan to spend friday afternoon on the pattern plate and try and sort this as best as possible. If say you were going to pattern the gun, having found a good cartridge, what distances would you do it for? Lets assume I'm going to stick 1/2 choke in and leave (as quite a few people have suggested) is it worth shooting a pattern at 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40 yards.

[wymberley]

I plan to spend friday afternoon on the pattern plate and try and sort this as best as possible. If say you were going to pattern the gun, having found a good cartridge, what distances would you do it for? Lets assume I'm going to stick 1/2 choke in and leave (as quite a few people have suggested) is it worth shooting a pattern at 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40 yards.

Cart and horse if you get my drift. You won't know a good cartridge (for you) until you've patterned it. You're just about to reach the point where you need the biggest nail and heaviest hammer you can find as you need to keep the lid firmly closed on the box that you're getting set to open!

 

Patterning a shotgun at a distance shorter than shots can be routinely expected to be taken is the same as reloading rifle ammunition without a chrono' and assuming that from your barrel the MV will be the same as stated in the loading table and that at 1" high it will be match perfectly the 150 yard zero that your downloaded ballistic tables tell you.

 

For decades, 40 yards has been the norm for good reason. Although I wouldn't bother with the 25 and 35, having a look at the 20 and 30 just to give you an idea is no waste of time. You could measure the overall spread (less the blatant flyers) at 20 yards (not always round so average the vertical and horizontal distances) and see how that compares with the pattern density you measure at 40 yards. I'll wager a pint that there's going to be a discrepancy.

 

How your 1/2 choke performs is anybody's guess, but don't worry as the pattern quality over-rides a shortfall in pellet numbers. If you're interested, what you could do (which would be of more benefit than eyeballing the 25 and 35 yard patterns) is to scribe a 25" dia. circle and count the number of pellets in that 2.5" wide disc - am assuming here that you're using the standard 30" circle. Because we don't know what will happen, I've bottled out from saying a 20" circle and 5" disc, but if the pattern checks out at about the 1/2, I'll wager another pint that the result of that count will not be as expected. If you do do it, it's only necessary on what turns out to be your preferred cartridge choice.

 

Edit: Final sentence added

Edited May 15, 2013 by wymberley

[mrmints]

My terminology has been wrong here. I'm interested first and foremost in the point of impact. Pattern is at the moment (rightly or wrongly) just a bonus.

 

 

There are two things that I want to get out of Fridays exercise. Firstly, I want my gun to shoot where I point it, when mounted as I do naturally. This is my first shotgun and I didn't budget big and wasn't keen to buy second-hand. Therefore I bought what I could afford having only mounted maybe three or four and not noticed much difference in any of them (most likely because I didn't and still don't know exactly what a well-fitting gun should feel like). After I bought the gun, the first thing I did was get an hours tuition. Hit 75% of the clays. Took it out on the pigeons for an hour, hit the three that I aimed at. Next time I went out, I missed everything, so I went to the clay ground and also missed everything. Had another lesson and hit 75% again....went out on my own (clays) and missed most of them. This is when I started to think that the instruction I was receiving wasn't great ("hit it when it goes between those trees and be just in front and above it" etc. etc.) and I decided I wanted to "pattern test" not to look at gaps in my pattern, but to figure out if my gun was pointing where I was shooting. This is obviously not called pattern testing, but determining POI. As it turns out, the gun was shooting low and off centre. I've corrected the off centre issue (I have very broad shoulders, and cast adjustment seems to have worked) but I'm still miles off on the height. I've read that 60% over and 40% under is a decent spread across the horizontal (50/50 would be ideal). Having put in one shim to raise the stock I can’t say I have noticed any difference at all. An additional shim should be at the house today or tomorrow and I hope this will bring the pattern up. If not, I will try something like some neoprene pads to "raise" the comb.

 

 

Once this has been achieved, I will start to pattern test different carts to find one which patterns well, with my 1/2 choke - my second objective.

[fabarm gamma boy]

hi

if yoyr hitting 75% of targets when your on your lessons and then hit nothing while you shoot alone seems very odd, i would sugest that you probably have confidence issues and tbh i think getting into all this patterning lark will just make things worse! causing you to over think, is this right is that right ect! if you hit targets with a gun 75% of infact and then miss when alone, this tells me its you buddy not the gun! i am pleased that you say you will leave the pigeons till your consistent, verry reponsible! forget about all of this pattern plate lark! and practice on the clays starting with easy targets and see how you progress! if theres still a problem get the gunfitted by a professional!

 

atvb

john

[Underdog]

Your approach sounds fine.

Did you try my suggestion about your eyes shut etc?

 

U.

[mrmints]

Annoyingly I'd already done the cast shim, so didn't for that, but I did when I adjusted the stock height and didn't notice very much difference.

 

I've basically written off a good couple of hours on Friday afternoon and I plan to take it back to the start and methodically work it through.

[mrmints]

hi

if yoyr hitting 75% of targets when your on your lessons and then hit nothing while you shoot alone seems very odd, i would sugest that you probably have confidence issues and tbh i think getting into all this patterning lark will just make things worse! causing you to over think, is this right is that right ect! if you hit targets with a gun 75% of infact and then miss when alone, this tells me its you buddy not the gun! i am pleased that you say you will leave the pigeons till your consistent, verry reponsible! forget about all of this pattern plate lark! and practice on the clays starting with easy targets and see how you progress! if theres still a problem get the gunfitted by a professional!

 

atvb

john

 

I know exactly what you're saying, but I don't know if I was only hitting those clays because the instructor (not my buddy) was telling me basically where to point and when to pull the trigger.

 

I now know that it wasn't shooting where I pointed it and still isn't right yet. If I can get it set up so that it shoots where I point it and I still miss the clays when I'm out on my own, I'll just have to do as you say and spend the next x-months getting used to the gun and how it shoots.

 

I also think that I will have been hitting the clays right in the top of the pattern even with the instructors advice.

Edited May 15, 2013 by mrmints

[Penelope]

IMO, for you to hit 75% of the clays when with the instructor, the gun must be pointing where you are looking, you would not have hit them otherwise.

 

I know exactly what you're saying, but I don't know if I was only hitting those clays because the instructor (not my buddy) was telling me basically where to point and when to pull the trigger.

 

I now know that it wasn't shooting where I pointed it and still isn't right yet. If I can get it set up so that it shoots where I point it and I still miss the clays when I'm out on my own, I'll just have to do as you say and spend the next x-months getting used to the gun and how it shoots.

 

I also think that I will have been hitting the clays right in the top of the pattern even with the instructors advice.