Beaters Pay and HMRC

[al4x]

Ok a slight twist to this, we are having all details taken and pay put up by a tenner and it's up to us to declare,

 

Now if you don't declare yet it goes against your ni number surely the tax office would spot the underpayment and send you a bill? Or are there any possible penalties linked to letting them do the work?

[Underdog]

 

I think you are being ripped off!

 

You should speak to them and ask how they are treating the payments, also ask them why they are deducting tax at 11%

thankyou.

 

U.

[neil3728]

Underdog I think i misunderstood your post I did presume that on these shoots that you are earning £25 per day, is there would be other empolyees, a main game keeper etc.

As long as one employee is earning over the threashold then a submission on all staff wages needs to be made.

[Piebob]

Just as a bit of an aside, £20-odd for a days beating seems quite low to me. I did a few days grouse and pheasants last year to help a keeper out and it was £40 per day. I think I may have even been given an extra £5 or £6 (on top of the £40) for fuel and/or dog (can't remember).

[goldypurple]

As people are being employed etc for the shoot on which they are beating/brushing and now having to pay tax on it, shouldnt the individual be paid the national miniunm wage per hour, depending on age?

[al4x]

On that basis do you fancy paying for cock day?

[Dunkield]

Just as a bit of an aside, £20-odd for a days beating seems quite low to me. I did a few days grouse and pheasants last year to help a keeper out and it was £40 per day. I think I may have even been given an extra £5 or £6 (on top of the £40) for fuel and/or dog (can't remember).

 

I am happy with £25, it was 320 for years and to be honest you don'y do it to get rich, it's just a nice little thank you.

We get 4-6 vermin days, 2 beaters/keepers days as well

[Underdog]

Underdog I think i misunderstood your post I did presume that on these shoots that you are earning £25 per day, is there would be other empolyees, a main game keeper etc.

As long as one employee is earning over the threashold then a submission on all staff wages needs to be made.

yes sir...some estate staff beat on the estate too. They come under thier existing PAYE but like the rest of the casual beaters last years 22,50 it has been dropped to 20 quid so as they put it to pay the tax! When all along there is no facility for the casual beaters to make a submission which leaves a conclusion that the shoot is being subsidised somewhat by the beaters.

I rang the secatary and explained why I wont be attending under the current arrangement!

 

U.

[leeds chimp]

As people are being employed etc for the shoot on which they are beating/brushing and now having to pay tax on it, shouldnt the individual be paid the national miniunm wage per hour, depending on age?

no as they will class the time between drives as break time as you not working

[norfolk dumpling]

I'm quite interested to see how a large estate shoot I'm involved with are going to handle this - so far have been asked to beat, been told they (3 keepers) know nothing about this and it will be £25 cash. They did not want my details.

[ColinF]

Ok a slight twist to this, we are having all details taken and pay put up by a tenner and it's up to us to declare,

 

Now if you don't declare yet it goes against your ni number surely the tax office would spot the underpayment and send you a bill? Or are there any possible penalties linked to letting them do the work?

 

It's your responsibility to declare the income and let them know that you need to submit a tax return, if you don't already do one. There are penalties for not submitting a tax return shown on the link below. It also tells you how let them know that you need to make returns:

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/sa/deadlines-penalties.htm?WT.ac=sa21_2013

 

If the shoot is making RTI submissions, HMRC will obviously know what your earnings are for the year. Unfortunately, they won't just send you a bill. If its a small shoot which doesn't have to make RTI submissions, HMRC will not know what your earnings are, unless they request the information from the shoot, which in reality is very unlikely. However, you will still need to declare the income

[ColinF]

yes sir...some estate staff beat on the estate too. They come under thier existing PAYE but like the rest of the casual beaters last years 22,50 it has been dropped to 20 quid so as they put it to pay the tax! When all along there is no facility for the casual beaters to make a submission which leaves a conclusion that the shoot is being subsidised somewhat by the beaters.

I rang the secatary and explained why I wont be attending under the current arrangement!

 

U.

 

If you are saying that the shoot already has full time employees, then they will have to make RTI submissions. The only shoots that don't have to make submissions, are those who don't have anyone who is paid more than £109 per week

[Underdog]

 

If you are saying that the shoot already has full time employees, then they will have to make RTI submissions. The only shoots that don't have to make submissions, are those who don't have anyone who is paid more than £109 per week

yes Colin existing staff are on the rti system but how I understand it is that any casual worker that earns less than £109.00 there is no need to make a submission, just keep a record.

 

U.

[ColinF]

yes Colin existing staff are on the rti system but how I understand it is that any casual worker that earns less than £109.00 there is no need to make a submission, just keep a record.

 

U.

 

In that case, the shoot does have to make RTI submissions. Once you have one employee earning more than £109 per week full submissions are required for all employees regardless of the amount they earn. It will be mainly small syndicate shoots, who don't have any employees other than casual beaters, that just need to keep records.

 

Sounds like your shoot is doing the right thing after all. They are probably paying £25, and deducting 20%, leaving you with £20?

[Underdog]

 

In that case, the shoot does have to make RTI submissions. Once you have one employee earning more than £109 per week full submissions are required for all employees regardless of the amount they earn. It will be mainly small syndicate shoots, who don't have any employees other than casual beaters, that just need to keep records.

 

Sounds like your shoot is doing the right thing after all. They are probably paying £25, and deducting 20%, leaving you with £20?

hmmmm thats not how it seemed described to me. No disrespect.

 

U.

[ColinF]

hmmmm thats not how it seemed described to me. No disrespect.

 

U.

 

This is the relevant bit from the HMRC guidance, the LEL is £109 per week:

 

Employed for one day or less

 

The individual is a daily harvest casual or beater and:

• is taken on for one day or less
• is paid off at the end of that period
• has no contract for further employment

If all of the above apply you do not have to deduct tax from what you pay them. You will however need to obtain the employee's full name, date of birth, gender, National Insurance number, address - and record the amounts paid to them.

 

If you already have employees who are paid above the LEL then you will need to include this information on your payroll and report it to HMRC on or before the payment is made. If you are unable to do this, you can send the information no later than seven days after the day on which the payment was made.

 

If you do not have any employees paid above the LEL then you must retain the details for each employee for three tax years following the end of the tax year to which the information relates.

 

The full guidance is here:

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/payerti/employee-starting/special-situations/temps/harvest-casuals.htm

Edited October 9, 2013 by ColinF

[Underdog]

I am an employee paid on the day under no contract of further enployment and under the LEL level ! No deductions needed and submitions to hmrc by the estate! Yes/no?

 

U. Thanks.

[David BASC]

No deductions by the estate if you are under LEL , estate must get and keep your reccords for three years unless other employees are already on PAYE then they must report your earnings in real time...as has been said....

[ColinF]

I am an employee paid on the day under no contract of further enployment and under the LEL level ! No deductions needed and submitions to hmrc by the estate! Yes/no?

 

U. Thanks.

 

The shoot doesn't have to make deductions, but they can deduct tax if they choose to. Submissions to HMRC are required if the shoot/estate has one or more employees paid above £109 p/week

 

 

No deductions by the estate if you are under LEL , estate must get and keep your reccords for three years unless other employees are already on PAYE then they must report your earnings in real time...as has been said....

 

Correct

[Underdog]

I must be real dumb....where in the guidance does it state that if any employees already over LEL and an rti system is operating for them my casual status suddenly is also submitted in real time?

I do not see where the two situations become linked in the guidance text!

U.

[ColinF]

I must be real dumb....where in the guidance does it state that if any employees already over LEL and an rti system is operating for them my casual status suddenly is also submitted in real time?

I do not see where the two situations become linked in the guidance text!

U.

 

This bit:

 

You will however need to obtain the employee's full name, date of birth, gender, National Insurance number, address - and record the amounts paid to them.

 

If you already have employees who are paid above the LEL then you will need to include this information on your payroll and report it to HMRC on or before the payment is made.

 

And this is the bit relating to when you just need to keep records:

 

If you do not have any employees paid above the LEL then you must retain the details for each employee for three tax years following the end of the tax year to which the information relates.

Edited October 9, 2013 by ColinF

[AlistairB]

Bet you wish you'd never started this thread now Colin!

[Underdog]

Well your the experts....I understood the context of the text relating to full time employees doing extra casual work for the same employee in addition to thier paye pay with it having its own paragraph etcetc.

 

So on what basis are the deductions calculated?

 

Thanks just the same.

U.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Underdog

[CharlieT]

Well your the experts....I understood the context of the text relating to full time employees doing extra casual work for the same employee in addition to thier paye pay with it having its own paragraph etcetc.

 

So on what basis are the deductions calculated?

 

Thanks just the same.

U.

No sure quite what you mean but full time employees can't do extra casual work for the same employer and receive a cash untaxed payment for beating. Any payment to them for beating would have to be included along with their usual pay and dealt with by PAYE.

[ColinF]

 

 

Well your the experts....I understood the context of the text relating to full time employees doing extra casual work for the same employee in addition to thier paye pay with it having its own paragraph etcetc. So on what basis are the deductions calculated? Thanks just the same. U.

 

Ask the shoot how they are taxing the payments, but my guess would be 20% as that would be the correct rate for a basic tax payer with their main job elsewhere. Have you been asked to fill in a form called a P46? This form will provide the shoot with the information required to get you on the correct tax rate

Edited October 9, 2013 by ColinF