Wasn't allowed .243

[beesley121]

Hi guys,

 

FAO came out today to go through my application.

 

He went through it with me and basically said I can't have the .243 until I get more experience. This is my first FAC application but am a sgc holder.

 

FAO was a great guy though who seemed to understand shooters needs

 

He's ok'd FAC air, .17hmr and .22 Lr

 

I applied for the .243 as I want to be able to shoot deer as well as foxes so thought best to go for one rifle that will do both jobs. It's not the end of the world that I'm now not getting a .243 but with the calibre a I have, I'm unable to shoot fox which is one of the main vermin on the land I have

 

To get a .243, he said I need 6 outing after deer with a kill and the dsc1 qualification

Edited August 1, 2013 by beesley121

[Frenchieboy]

Hi guys,

 

FAO came out today to go through my application.

 

He went through it with me and basically said I can't have the .243 until I get more experience. This is my first FAC application but am a sgc holder

 

He's ok'd FAC air, .17hmr and .22 Lr

 

I applied for the .243 as I want to be able to shoot deer as well as foxes so thought best to go for one rifle that will do both jobs. It's not the end of the world that I'm now not getting a .243 but with the calibre a I have, I'm unable to shot fox which is one of the main vermin on the land I have

 

To get a .243, he said I need 6 outing after deer with a kill and the dsc1 qualification

That sounds a little harsh!

Are the FEOs now trying to say that a DSC1 is compulsory for first time .243 applicants? If so I would like to see where that is stated in the HO Guidelines - I don't think it is but I might be wrong.

If you are a member of BASC (Or another similar organisation) it might be worth contacting them to see what they say about it!

[Beretta28g]

Erm what have you applied to use the .22 for? Vermin?

 

And what did you say a fox was? Vermin?

[beesley121]

Cheshire don't class fox as vermin but just class it as fox.

 

He said that they are slowly trying to move towards the

OLQ clause but its not out as yet

[Beretta28g]

Id be pushing for a .22 cf like dare i say it a hornet then

[beesley121]

Id be pushing for a .22 cf like dare i say it a hornet then

He mentioned that, me being new to the FAC scene, I wasn't sure what that round was but obviously, it must be a legal fox calibre.

 

He did however mention that buying one is not easy and is expensive for what they are, plus the ammo ain't cheap either.

It's a little gutting that I didn't get the .243, especially as I have some great land in Wales that I could have practiced long range shooting with but I guess it will all come in the end. Assuming everything goes ok and I get my license, I can't wait to try out the .17hmr

[JonathanL]

Hi guys,

 

FAO came out today to go through my application.

 

He went through it with me and basically said I can't have the .243 until I get more experience. This is my first FAC application but am a sgc holder.

 

FAO was a great guy though who seemed to understand shooters needs

 

He's ok'd FAC air, .17hmr and .22 Lr

 

I applied for the .243 as I want to be able to shoot deer as well as foxes so thought best to go for one rifle that will do both jobs. It's not the end of the world that I'm now not getting a .243 but with the calibre a I have, I'm unable to shoot fox which is one of the main vermin on the land I have

 

To get a .243, he said I need 6 outing after deer with a kill and the dsc1 qualification

[Fisheruk]

I don't agree with the dsc1 condition, but the other comments are fair. Get plenty of experience with the. 22lr and 17hmr and by that I mean put plenty of ammo through them then apply for a variation to swap your FAC air for a. 223. That will give you cheep ammo and cover your fox problem.

Enjoy

[LEE243]

In the firearms act is says experience is desired for what caliber you want if you were down my way i would take you out with .243 and the hornet.

So if you know somebody with a centrefire ask them to help you.

Regarding using rimfires for shooting fox it is legal your covered under your vermin condition, peoplle ingluding feo's get confused between good reasoon to posess and what you can shoot with certain firearms

Atb Lee

[Luckyshot]

In the firearms act is says experience is desired for what caliber you want if you were down my way i would take you out with .243 and the hornet.

So if you know somebody with a centrefire ask them to help you.

Regarding using rimfires for shooting fox it is legal your covered under your vermin condition, peoplle ingluding feo's get confused between good reasoon to posess and what you can shoot with certain firearms

Atb Lee

 

Fox isn't classed as vermin under Durham either so going by MY CONDITIONS if I shot a fox with my rimfire I would be braking my conditions. As for BASC or anyone else saying fox are vermin would they pay the court case for breach of conditions, I don't think so

Edited August 2, 2013 by Luckyshot

[blackbird]

If you limit the range to 120 yards tops the .17HMR is well up for the job for fox control & why waste your money on a FAC air rifle the .22LR is far more useful as stated by the other guys get out & use a few 100 rounds wait a few months & put in for a variation for your FAC air rifle for a CF.

[JonathanL]

In the firearms act is says experience is desired for what caliber you want if you were down my way i would take you out with .243 and the hornet.

So if you know somebody with a centrefire ask them to help you.

Regarding using rimfires for shooting fox it is legal your covered under your vermin condition, peoplle ingluding feo's get confused between good reasoon to posess and what you can shoot with certain firearms

Atb Lee

Where in the Act?

 

J

[Kes]

When I spoke to Cheshire about deer, they said the following, there are no munjac in Cheshire, you wont get approval to shoot deer with a .223 in Cheshire (because they believe there are no small deer in Cheshire). For a .243 I had a " with an experienced stalker" condition but 4 stalks and nothing about a kill but thats logical but specified later I expect. Since my land wont apparently justify a .243 (1400 acres in one block) but a .223, I could either have a .243 or a .308 provided I met the conditioning and have been granted a .243 on my ticket. Naturally enough I'm using estate rifles for the moment. My plan was to get a .17 hornet and a deer rifle and get rid of the .223 then I could cover all my forseeable needs.

 

There are munjac in Cheshire, other members will confirm and I have seen and photograhed their tracks, I dont see the difference between a .223 and .243 for fox, except the ballistic differences, I would say you need the same levels of safety, care and awareness for both. So I have a .223 conditioned only for fox, not rabbits or vermin mind you, just fox.

If your land supports the use of a .243/308 then why would you need any other calibre for fox, unless you wanted it.

The perverse outcome of this in Cheshire is that through inflexibility, there are probably more guns in circulation to meet the calibre requirements than there would need to be with a less restrictive approach ? Also, there seems to be a degree of decisionmaking devolved to the FEO, so, if you want to you could send a request for a reconsideration to the Manager or perhaps speak to BASC and ask them to do it. A DSC1 is not a reasonable expectation and should be resisted, accompanied stalks, are logical - a DSC isnt.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Kes

[LEE243]

 

Fox isn't classed as vermin under Durham either so going by MY CONDITIONS if I shot a fox with my rimfire I would be braking my conditions. As for BASC or anyone else saying fox are vermin would they pay the court case for breach of conditions, I don't think so

If thats the case i would be challenging it mate ,liike i said if your going for a grant no licencing authority are going to give you a rimfire for fox excluding

a wmr but theres nothing to stop you shooting one with your vermin conditioned rimfire.

Atb Lee

[LEE243]

Where in the Act?

 

J

"It is desirable that new applicants

should have some previous experience

of the safe use of firearms before using

such rifles." 13.24 of chapter 13This common for all new applicants

Atb Lee

[Piebob]

 

As for BASC or anyone else saying fox are vermin would they pay the court case for breach of conditions, I don't think so

 

Probably a question for DavidBASC but I thought that the answer was "yes". I thought BASC are ready and willing to take on this very topic if it ever ends up in court.

[kyska]

 

Probably a question for DavidBASC but I thought that the answer was "yes". I thought BASC are ready and willing to take on this very topic if it ever ends up in court.

 

Thats what I read too.

 

When I was in Leicestershire they granted me a .22cf on first application as they wouldn't condition any rimfire for fox.

 

I moved a mile into Notts and my wmr is conditioned for fox.

[CharlieT]

Where in the Act?

 

J

 

You beat me to it !!

"It is desirable that new applicants

should have some previous experience

of the safe use of firearms before using

such rifles." 13.24 of chapter 13This common for all new applicants

Atb Lee

That is not the Firearms Act but a quote from ACPO guidance which is not law.

[al4x]

and its the ACPO's latest round of tea and biscuits that is causing the OP an issue, the new recomendations being sung as such a good thing say in your situation with no experience they are encouraging training rather than mentoring. Hence the DSC requirement and no mention of gaining the experience with a mentor.

Obviously most don't want to fight it and in your situation I would just do what they ask it will stand you in good stead for deer. However I wouldn't have asked a clarification on foxes being vermin and just gone ahead and shot them. Firstly no one is ever likely to know, secondly foxes meet the dictionary definition of vermin and BASC have published the advice as one of their most asked questions and the advice is crack on and shoot them sensibly. You still have cruelty legislation if you leave a load of wounded ones about but that is as far as it goes.

[Darno]

I don't mean to hijack the post, but, with a shotgun, I can legally use my friends gun on his land in his presence even if I'm not a liscence holder!

Does the same apply to firearms? The reason I ask is I'm not so sure that it is the same, and am wondering how you could legally get experience with said rifle?

[al4x]

using an estate rifle is one way, or ask your firearms dept what their definition of occupier is. If they say anyone with permission then you are fine on your mates rifle, basically occupier is a word they haven't defined properly so really you are good to go and highly unlikely for it to be an issue but the above does the slight back covering exercise.

[deaquire]

I reckon it's fair comment. But do your constabulary allow you to use r/f for fox? I only had a .22 lr on my license, I do want to go down the cf route, really want to go deer stalking when money allows and I'm going to use that experience to get my .243 eventually. A friend uses .223 for fox so im getting good experience with that. In the meantime i settled for making the variation and added a .22wmr and .17hmr (i was undecided at the time so put both) I put down under reason for use "fox" on both. It came back granted in less than 5 days.

[moorvale55]

Going back to the first point by BEESLEY121, this shows how inconsistent Police Forces are. Widnes, Cheshire is not far from the Staffordshire Moorlands, (next county). Staffordshire Police granted the .22lr and .17hmr so both can be used for fox, the .243 on ticket was granted in full for deer and AOLQ with no mention of stalking 6 times or having a DSC1 qualification. So, by virtue of being a few miles apart, each Police Force has a different set of rules.

[deaquire]

So, by virtue of being a few miles apart, each Police Force has a different set of rules.

This always surprises me. We live in a country under (we expect) one set of laws, but for shooting alone there are so many differences. North Yorkshire police allow .17hmr for foxes, but other forces do not. Which is right? Shouldn't we be able to use our own (often more exerieneced) judgement?

[Luckyshot]

If thats the case i would be challenging it mate ,liike i said if your going for a grant no licencing authority are going to give you a rimfire for fox excluding

a wmr but theres nothing to stop you shooting one with your vermin conditioned rimfire.

Atb Lee

 

If no licencing authority is going to issue a rimfire for fox why not ? if its legal according to you classed as vermin.

 

 

Probably a question for DavidBASC but I thought that the answer was "yes". I thought BASC are ready and willing to take on this very topic if it ever ends up in court.

 

Exact words from my licencing authority "We issue you your fac and set the conditions NOT BASC"

 

 

Thats what I read too.

 

When I was in Leicestershire they granted me a .22cf on first application as they wouldn't condition any rimfire for fox.

 

I moved a mile into Notts and my wmr is conditioned for fox.

 

Would you gamble your fac on that, I wouldn't and that's partly why Im no longer a member of BASC as my force doesn't acknowledge anything BASC says so for me it wasn't worth renewing my cover.