Mungler Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Well, with a £500 fine they will think they have got away with it. I guess the charge and sentencing guidelines tie the judges hands. I reckon things will get a lot more expensive for them and very quickly on any second offence. A real punishment would be to take their tickets away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 (edited) With these sort of stories I always have a question in the back of my mind, like a little bell ringing away. How did they think they were going to get away with it? The truth is Vince most farmers in Orkney are peace loving people & avoid confrontation & that has allowed these cretins to to get away with it for so long & excuse the expression but they have just about cooked their goose here now . They have a few farmers on the payroll & that seems to keep them going & one particular one is an inherited young triple AAA grade bumpkin farmer who thinks they & their money are Gods ! & they can do no wrong & he took to slagging me off on his Face Book site thinking I would not find out about it , when this bumpkin suggested violence against me he got a call from the U NO WHO which cut him down to size ! . If you want to know some more check out the Orcadin news paper page 11 Thursday 15th November 2012 Kirkwall Sheriff court & you can see I laid my head on the block to expose what was happening here . You will find this on the Orcadian news paper web site . ps look for the Not Guilty bit Edited August 4, 2013 by Pole Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypig Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 (edited) Has anyone considered also that a wild life crime conviction also means that the general licence can not be relied on. Such persons are excluded from the licence Edited August 4, 2013 by happypig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisheruk Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Has anyone considered also that a wild life crime conviction also means that the general licence can not be relied on. Such persons are excluded from the licence +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Has anyone considered also that a wild life crime conviction also means that the general licence can not be relied on. Such persons are excluded from the licence Not to sure what you mean happpig ? can you please explain it ? ATB . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) My brother, mate & I had a run in with one of those 'guides' charged last year when we were up in Orkney after greylags. We got permission from the farmer, Eoin Scott (now sadly deceased), the previous day, but when we arrived about 5:30am we found a party of guns digging out hides in the field. I went over to let them know we intended to shoot on that field too.The 'guide' was verbally abusive and adamant that he had permission to shoot the field and we better leave. We were doubtful of this, and after the verbals, thought we would not let him wreck our morning and set up about 300 yards away to the right of them. After the flight I went to try and smooth things over, but the 'guide' didn't take this too well, and lent in and told me "If you see me, my brother, my father or our trucks again, you better not come anywhere near where we're shooting." I asked him why, then delighted in informing him that if he was going to continue the threatening behaviour, one of the guns in our group was a serving Policeman, so he had better just be careful what he said and did. Of course when we checked with Eoin, they didn't have permission to shoot at all, and they left a dead goose on the field. The worst of it is that this so called guide had his clients set up in layout blinds shooting towards an A road at about 40 yards away - which should give everyone an idea of the sort of idiots they are. Let me just say that there are guides and shooters all over the world that commit armed trespass and poaching - but these ones happen to be Italian. I can't understand why they haven't been prosecuted for every offence they have obviously committed (perverting the course of justice, for a start?) had their licenses taken away and had their business shut down. Let's see if there are any further prosecutions. There is a wealth of additional illegal activity that this group has been alleged to have committed - let's see what happens with this in future. Congratulations to Pole Star, I and others know these idiots have made things very difficult for you over the last couple of years, hopefully we'll see an end to it all now. This is not the first time Italians have been shooting on farms with out permission Ross its happened time & time again & these particular Italians work on the assumption that permission give once is permission always & they know full well that if they were challenged this would be their defense " oh but you gave us permission ! " . They know full well how to bend the rules & laws in their favor & as said the farmers here don't like confrontation . One farmer who is not afraid heard shots on his farm & went to investigate & as he went over the hill to look what did he see ? Italians running down the hill & climbing over the fence to get back on to the farm where they did have permission , another farmer caught 2 Italian shooters set up in the middle of his field of sheep shooting golden plover & when he challenged them they reply he got was " but we no shoota tha sheepa ! " the farmer said look all I have to do is make a phone call boys ! & he put them off his farm over the fence next to the road with all their gear & left em there . Things are changing here now . ATB Edited August 5, 2013 by Pole Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Part of the problem may be cultural. I don't know about Italy but I know in Greece people just shoot where they like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Part of the problem may be cultural. I don't know about Italy but I know in Greece people just shoot where they like. Correct Vince but the Italian guide & his sons are based in Scotland & they know UK law & UK law should be explained or better still drummed into them , as they say ignorance in no excuse in law , or so we are told . As you say some of the problem is cultural & Italians , Greeks & Maltese can have a real problem accepting our laws & some of them resent them . A titled gentleman here in Orkney told me that when he was based in Malta years ago the Italian shooters would come to Malta during the bird migrating season & shoot every thing from finches to eagles !. But as I posted the ones seen running from a farmer knew full well they were breaking the law . ATB Pole Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypig Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) Not to sure what you mean happpig ? can you please explain it ? ATB . 12. No person convicted on or after 1 January 2010 of an offence to which this paragraph applies may use this licence unless, in respect of that offence they are either (1) a rehabilitated person for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 and their conviction is treated as spent; or (2) in respect of such an offence, a court has made an order discharging them absolutely. This paragraph applies to offences under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, the Conservation (Natural Habitats &c.) Regulations 1994, the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010, the Protection of Badgers Act 1992, the Deer Act 1991, the Hunting Act 2004, the Wild Mammals (Protection) Act 1996, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Protection of Animals Act 1911 (all as amended) (see note i). Extract from general licence.... Not sure about Scottish provisions.... Edit-- quick google search of Scottish GL . No person convicted on or after 1 January 2008 of an offence to which this paragraph applies may use this licence unless, in respect of that offence, either (1) they were dismissed with an admonition, or (2) they are a rehabilitated person for the purposes of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 and their conviction is treated as spent. A person may also use this licence where, in respect of such an offence, a court has made an order discharging them absolutely. This paragraph applies to offences under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, the Conservation (Natural Habitats &c.) Regulations 1994, the Protection of Badgers Act 1992, the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002, the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006 and the Protection of Animals (Scotland) Act 1912 (all as amended). Assuming a conviction in the acts above then its possible this provision will apply and if I'm correct it effectively ends live quarry shooting Edited August 5, 2013 by happypig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulpicide Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) They will not be able to use the General licence But they do'nt need to as its their clients that are actually shooting under the licence but it may affect their ( the guides ) shotgun certs. Well done Carl thats me back from Moy and getting my messages again. cheers for the heads up. Edited August 5, 2013 by vulpicide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fella Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) £500 is a punishment for a shoplifter or stone thrower, not for someone who is taking paying guests onto protected RSPB land and shooting birds there. I have no doubt the RSPB in this instance will be as disappointed as the rest of us. Without opening a can of worms on the Italian Shooter argument, I saw these 2 named first hand, and as if shooting at an A road wasn't bad enough, laying out all 3 shots in a semi auto and then following up by grabbing another one near to you and sticking another 3 in, and then walking away with one bird gives you an idea into the level of sportsmanship involved in their shooting. From everyone I spoke to when I was in Orkney, this behaviour is not welcome. Take their tickets away. Their behaviour, no matter what nationally they're from, is not welcome in British shooting and Wildfowling. Edited August 5, 2013 by fella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Part of the problem may be cultural. I don't know about Italy but I know in Greece people just shoot where they like. Not legally - and they have strict quotas on how much game they can shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Man Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 As a resident in Orkney for the past 25 years after moving up from England I have to say that it’s not a good thing getting in trouble with the RSPB, however, talking to people I understand that those Italian boys were only about 150 metres into the reserve coming off some of the ground they shoot regularly. So it seems to me to be more of a mistake than blatant poaching. You guys are all having a go at these people but I have met some of them whilst in the Hotel where they stay while playing darts, and I had a drink with them I have to say they are a pleasant bunch of people and that would explain why they have gotten those 5 or 6 very good pieces of shooting on the West Mainland and why they have managed to keep the shooting on all those farms for what must be coming onto 20 years now. These days the RSPB have far too much power and they are trying to assert their authority on far too much land in Scotland and certainly in Orkney. From our point of view it does not seem to be a good idea getting into bed with them as their long term gain is to stop all shooting activities. That is well documented on their manifesto. As we speak now they are busy lobbying the government in Scotland trying to ban shooting of woodcock, golden plover and restrict access to many more parts of the country. Make no mistake this will happen in the future. I do my shooting in the east mainland and I’ve done so for the past 20 years. I’ve never seen any Italian shooters over there, what I see however is an increasing number of English/Irish and Welsh shooters as well as Scottish from mainland that are coming up in an ever increasing number, year to year. There are pick ups and minibuses going around the country every day of the winter, and on more than one occasion, on a Saturday morning which is the only day I can shoot I find people already in the field already set up. On one occasion I could just not dissuade these people from going away and certainly they had no permission to be there. Incidentally, this also happens to some of my shooting companions in Kirkwall. Certainly the number of guns coming up has increased tenfold in the past few years and this trend seems set to continue. I fear us local people will not be able to enjoy our sport as we always have done and Orkney will become another Solway scenario. For those old enough to remember, 35 years ago the Solway had the biggest population of Greylags in Britain and in a matter of 10 years that population was almost wiped out, not by foreign shooters but by our fellow countrymen, mainly from the midlands. I know that as I went there to shoot with friends and at the Glen Kaple Hotel one night I counted 27 shooters and that was only 1 hotel. Every single place along the foreshore was taken by guns and when dawn broke in the morning and geese started flying onto the feeding ground from the mudflat it was just continuous shooting. And then when they got to the feeding ground they were getting shot over decoys. It wasn’t very good but that’s what happens and we’ve got to accept that people tend to get particularly greedy especially when the shootings free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 " very local scottish guides" with very local scottish names.... nuff sed.. from Auntie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy.plinker Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Aye FoxMan your right enough ,it's not just the Italians,there are a few jokers doing the rounds up here now through the winter,at least their soon found out and what vehicles they have it makes it easier to keep clear of them,an advantage of island life I guess.But as the BBC would say...'other guides are available' (ps I'm not one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Fox Man - with the greatest of respect, although you had a nice chat with some Italian shooters it doesn't detract from their proven, repeated lawbreaking. They were found guilty of killing game on land that they had no business to be on - as such, they deserve to be prosecuted, whether it's the RSPB or another landowner that brings the prosecution. I don't believe for a minute that it was a mistake - as you said, they shoot nearby ground regularly, so they should know where their permission ends and where the RSPB reserve starts. I suggest they retain areas of land to shoot on for no other reason than that they pay heartily for it. Remember that their behaviour tarnishes us all. As Pole Star said, they took him to court on false grounds, and their case was thrown out. God knows why they were not then subsequently prosecuted for perverting the course of justice?! I detailed my own experiences earlier on this thread, and you can see that their behaviour bears no relation to sportsmanship, safety or legality. As Fella says, so far, the court has been unbelievably lenient. I can appreciate that you are worried about incomers coming to shoot in Orkney, but the greylag goose population, especially the resident population, is considered a huge problem by Orcadian farmers - to the point where it looks like out of season culls are going to be a regular fixture. You can't really blame shooters visiting to shoot a surplus of an artificially high population of geese. Shooting tourism is undoubtedly good news for Orkney's economy - I've certainly had no complaints from Shearer's when I go in to buy cartridges. My own point of view is that yes, the geese can be a problem, but I've spent four weeks shooting in Orkney, and have shot less than ten each time. I have no wish to wipe them out. I think you're right about the RSPB though, whereas once they were impartial, even cooperative on shooting matters, they are now clearly not to be trusted. The incident I mentioned above happened between Norseman and Finstown, I think that's the east Mainland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Happy Plinker, just to say we're not all cowboys mate. I've had some great times in Orkney have a massive amount of respect for everyone up there, I try to shoot safely, legally and respectfully, the same as I do at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) FOXMAN Its late & I don't have a lot of time right now but when did you last hear of plane loads of English , Scottish , Welsh & Irish shooters going to Italy to enjoy the wonderful shooting & abundance of game & wild fowl too be had in that country do you really need me too answer that for you , now can you tell me why plane loads of them come too the UK & Ireland . As Vincegreen said its a cultural thing & a culture we don't want in Britain & note this ,these so called Italian guides are here with just money in mind & it was said even the Cray twins were nice in the pub when they were getting info & money out of people ! . Tell me where did you suddenly spring from ? this is your first post on Pigeon Watch I know the Italians who haunt these Isles are the best readers of my posts ever since I blew the lid off their little game with my post ITALIAN SHOOTERS & CURLEW DECOYS ! remember ( hello boys remember me you last met me in Kirkwall sheriff court when you tried to stitch me up ! ). I will tell you some more home truths tomorrow that you seem to have missed from our local paper Mr Foxman & I will give you some well know facts about the cultural problems with a lot of Italian shooters you don' t seem to know about . Pole Star Edited August 6, 2013 by Pole Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy.plinker Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 RossEM I said the word 'few', and it is just a few and I'll quickly add the odd Orcadian too.But yourself and dozens other are no problem whatsoever,a few incidents have happened here lately like a ton bag of dead geese discarded and the odd case of 'get of this field we have permission',they certainly are a minority but its them that can spoil it for the majority. So sorry if my post sounded otherwise to you. HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fella Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Foxman I appreciate what you're saying and I don;t think anyone would disagree with you in relation to overshooting and that it doesn't matter where people come from, if an area is overshot then that is bad for everyone. But I simply can't buy into "we had a few drinks together in a bar and they seemed a nice bunch" style attitude. Drinking habits and friendliness in no way reflect the behaviour exhibited by the guys mentioned in the news story. I've still got a video on my phone of them trying to shoot birds so high up they would have left a crater when they landed. It should be about encouraging that they change their behaviour, and hopefully a large fine would encourage that. More realistically though, they should have their certificates taken off them. A small island like Orkney would soon know that the RSPB are an outfit to respect, even if we all disagree with their motives. How could anyone expect them to respect us if we do what the guys in this story did? I'd be less than pleased... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) As a resident in Orkney for the past 25 years after moving up from England I have to say that it’s not a good thing getting in trouble with the RSPB, however, talking to people I understand that those Italian boys were only about 150 metres into the reserve coming off some of the ground they shoot regularly. So it seems to me to be more of a mistake than blatant poaching. You guys are all having a go at these people but I have met some of them whilst in the Hotel where they stay while playing darts, and I had a drink with them I have to say they are a pleasant bunch of people and that would explain why they have gotten those 5 or 6 very good pieces of shooting on the West Mainland and why they have managed to keep the shooting on all those farms for what must be coming onto 20 years now. These days the RSPB have far too much power and they are trying to assert their authority on far too much land in Scotland and certainly in Orkney. From our point of view it does not seem to be a good idea getting into bed with them as their long term gain is to stop all shooting activities. That is well documented on their manifesto. As we speak now they are busy lobbying the government in Scotland trying to ban shooting of woodcock, golden plover and restrict access to many more parts of the country. Make no mistake this will happen in the future. I do my shooting in the east mainland and I’ve done so for the past 20 years. I’ve never seen any Italian shooters over there, what I see however is an increasing number of English/Irish and Welsh shooters as well as Scottish from mainland that are coming up in an ever increasing number, year to year. There are pick ups and minibuses going around the country every day of the winter, and on more than one occasion, on a Saturday morning which is the only day I can shoot I find people already in the field already set up. On one occasion I could just not dissuade these people from going away and certainly they had no permission to be there. Incidentally, this also happens to some of my shooting companions in Kirkwall. Certainly the number of guns coming up has increased tenfold in the past few years and this trend seems set to continue. I fear us local people will not be able to enjoy our sport as we always have done and Orkney will become another Solway scenario. For those old enough to remember, 35 years ago the Solway had the biggest population of Greylags in Britain and in a matter of 10 years that population was almost wiped out, not by foreign shooters but by our fellow countrymen, mainly from the midlands. I know that as I went there to shoot with friends and at the Glen Kaple Hotel one night I counted 27 shooters and that was only 1 hotel. Every single place along the foreshore was taken by guns and when dawn broke in the morning and geese started flying onto the feeding ground from the mudflat it was just continuous shooting. And then when they got to the feeding ground they were getting shot over decoys. It wasn’t very good but that’s what happens and we’ve got to accept that people tend to get particularly greedy especially when the shootings free. Foxman in further reply to your first ever post on PW , I wonder who these nice lads are you have been having a chat with in the bar at the hotel where they stay are? ,are they guides or visiting guns ? . If they are visiting guns they may well be some nice chaps amongst them & some conservation minded ones too , there was a very nice chap from the Italian Federation of Hunters giving a talk at the BASC Wildfowl Conference on the work they are doing for conservation in Italy ( God love him ) & a friend of mine had a chat with him about the laws in Italy & it turns out that the use of electronic callers & the use of unrestricted magazine shotguns is legal in Italy !! . They are not legal in the UK & have not been since the 1981 wildlife & countryside act & this was brought in to help preserve our wild fowl stocks & rightly so , now perhaps that is why the Italians delight in coming here to shoot , because WE STILL HAVE GAME & WILDFOWL TOO HUNT ! . Take your self on a package deal to Italy Foxman & see what birds you can count ! . One of my first posts on PW was called " Italian Shooters & Curlew Decoys " & that blew the lid clean off what these Italian Scottish based guides were up to ! . Now as you are over on the East Mainland where they don't shoot you obviously don't know what has been going on over here in the west & I DO ! so I had better give you an education on the subject because you are in desperate need of it ! . So here goes , some time time ago the RSPB & the Police caught 2 wealthy Italian shooters who flew in to Orkney on a private jet shooting Golden Plover by the use of AN ELECTRONIC CALLER , much to the annoyance of the RSPB chap who caught them the charges were not perused & these Italians were put back on their plane with their guns & told to leave . I better explain what electronic callers are THEY RECORDINGS OF WILD GEESE . DUCKS , OR PLOVER BLASTED ACROSS THE FIELDS AT THE SWITCH OF A BUTTON TO CALL IN THE BIRDS VIA A LOUD SPEAKER . Last year a farmer where I shoot said to me , what are those Italians doing over on the farm over there ? I heard a loud calling of geese this morning while they were picking up dead geese among the decoys & there was not a goose to be seen in the sky any where & the calling would suddenly start & then stop & start again ? . I informed the farmer that is electronic callers which are illegal & have been for years . As RossEM said they & you claim they have been shooting that bit of ground where they were caught for ages & they claim they were lost ! . I have to leave here Foxman so perhaps you would like to pick up on it for your second ever post on PW in over a year . Pole Star ps Foxman next time you are having a drink with your nice buddies tel em about an old a British saying "" When In Rome do as the Romans do " & when they come here they should do as we do ! & if they don't like it DON'T COME Edited August 7, 2013 by Pole Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) So what happened FOXMAN you did not return to the debate , have you seen today's Orcadian page 8 see the title Brothers Fined for Shooting in Bird Reserve ? according to the procurator fiscal these two individuals deliberately took the party of Italians onto the reserve ! , so just in case you don't know as it seems ? that is the reason why they were fined £ 1,000 ie because they were guilty ! . Pole Star ps next time you are having a drink with your mates perhaps you better tell em that the laws in the UK are different from Italy & you cant just go & shoot where you like ! Edited August 9, 2013 by Pole Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted August 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2013 READ ALL ABOUT IT ! READ ALL ABOUT ! Its in today's Countrymans Weekly . Nothing like bad publicity for those who deserve it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopwylie Posted August 15, 2013 Report Share Posted August 15, 2013 (edited) The truth is Vince most farmers in Orkney are peace loving people & avoid confrontation & that has allowed these cretins to to get away with it for so long & excuse the expression but they have just about cooked their goose here now . They have a few farmers on the payroll & that seems to keep them going & one particular one is an inherited young triple AAA grade bumpkin farmer who thinks they & their money are Gods ! & they can do no wrong & he took to slagging me off on his Face Book site thinking I would not find out about it , when this bumpkin suggested violence against me he got a call from the U NO WHO which cut him down to size ! . If you want to know some more check out the Orcadin news paper page 11 Thursday 15th November 2012 Kirkwall Sheriff court & you can see I laid my head on the block to expose what was happening here . You will find this on the Orcadian news paper web site . ps look for the Not Guilty bit well where do I start with this. it was you who slagged me off because I was working for the Italians and you don't even know me so strike me down for trying to earn some money in the winter by doing something I enjoy. I also do not think anyone is god I just have respect for somebody who has trusted me with a job. now the police comment, my cousin works as an officer here and he told me not to react on sites like these while there was court cases concerning you has they were watching them which I passed on to your neighbour so he might mention it to you as a lot of your so called friends were worried about you I thought it might be of some help. now im sorry if you took it the wrong way but if you wish to spend your life on social networking sites you will pick up the wrong end of the stick now and again. I do not know when I have supposed to have suggested violence but if it was a comment about rolling a bale on you when you were sleeping when you were supposed to be wildfowling that was banter also with your so called friends and I don't see you slagging them off behind a computer. so will you please stop writing **** about me as all my shooting friends plus your neighbours keep telling me what you write and its getting a bit old and whats the craic with calling me a AAA grade bumpkin. well sorry again but if you think that living in the country and owning a farm constitutes being a AAA grade bumpkin you have just slagged off 70% of the island what you are an incomer in. so if you have a personal problem with me please stop past and i'm sure we can sort it out but if it is only because of who I work for then I cannot sort out your views for you. yours sincerely AAA grade bumpkin(hard working Orkney farmer lol). And foxman you bring up a very good point me and my friends have also had a lot of problems with mainland shooters not asking for permission and setting up camp where we have permission to shoot which is armed trespass which you have to quote to these people and it is only going to get worse as the years go by. I am envolved in the cull up here and I fear its going to be the only trouble free shooting we are going to get!! Edited August 15, 2013 by chopwylie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stavvy Posted August 15, 2013 Report Share Posted August 15, 2013 This thread appears to be warming up nicely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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