A O L Q

[delburt0]

I no what it stands for but what what are the advantages,

Excuse me for this but for yrs I have put the calibre I need in car ie

foxing tonight 22/250

Bunnies .22

Close fox ,hornet

I have just put my renewal in and wonder if I should be asking for it, as there seems to be a lot of confusion over it in my previous thread ( my fao won't allow hmr for fox )

A explanation in layman terms greatly appreciated,

Thx in advance atb......

[huntsman]

I believe taking more than 1 rifle out to shoot rabbits and another to shoot a fox, does not make sense, If for instance I take the HMR out, for a few bunnys and a fox comes creeping accross infront of me some 50- 60yds away, It would be illegal for me to pot a shot. some police forces wont give you All legal quarry on your ticket.

 

But also you have to question the security of the vehicle.

 

I dont know why all forces dont allow some dispensation,when they know this practice does go on.I dont like taking 2 rifles with me purely because i CANNOT fully secure my rifles within the vehicle as I dont have a secured cabinet in my hatchback.

 

Any Reasonable .FAO, with any sense must realise we all dont drive vehicles with gun cabinets bolted to the family boot space and into the passenger area

 

Therefore the reasons to allow AOLQ must prevail

[kennett]

As far as I know it means that you have been deemed sensible enough to know the limitations of your rifle, so for instance .22lr, legal for anything up to deer, boar etc. So if out rabbiting and you see a close fox, or a squirrel you are allowed to shoot it. With centrefires, for example if out stalking and you see a fox, you are covered to shoot it. So in short, you are allowed to shoot anything that is legal with that calibre.

 

Sorry didn't read your post properly, the advantages are you have more flexibility with each rifle, its not usually an issue as like you I normally go out for one species or another, but its good to know that if you chance across a fox or whatever you are able to shoot it!

Edited October 3, 2013 by kennett

[David BASC]

Yes exactly, its daft to have to take out 2 or possibly 3 rifles at a time, one each for a different quarry.

 

 

So AOLQ will allow you to use any of your rifles as the conditions and quarry permit.

 

 

David

[r1steele]

It also covers things such as farmers needing a dog shot due to worrying sheep or if you are in a badger cull area and find yourself in the position to take part as these would not be included in normal conditions but are covered by AOLQ. A court case involving somebody's dog that was shot and your certificate didn't cover it would be interesting!!

[CharlieT]

Back in 2008 The National Gamekeepers Organisation wrote to ACPO asking that consideration be given to the possibility of permitting fac holders to shoot species smaller than those listed on their fac.

 

This was to try and bring an end to the daft condition imposed on some who were only conditioned to shoot fox only whilst deer stalking, or the refusal by some forces to condition c/f rifles for vermin.

 

Following lobbying by the NGO the ACPO, after much discussion, warmed to the suggestion and the AOLQ condition was drafted and circulated to all forces with the recommendation that the condition be applied to certificates.

 

Copied below are the minutes from the ACPO meeting of 14th Feb 2008 when the first letter from the NGO was discussed.

 

08/01/15 Deer stalkers, shooting lesser species

15.1 Members considered a previously circulated letter received by

the National Gamekeeper’ Organisation requesting

consideration be given to agree it would not be in the public

interest to prosecute firearm certificate holders for legally

shooting species smaller than those to which his FAC conditions

apply.

15.2 Members agreed those with authority and good reason should

be able to shoot to lesser species as well as deer, and the Chair

will draft a suitable condition for the taking of deer, fox and

vermin and circulate to members of the group for their

agreement/observations.

Action 14 – Chair

15.3 While FELWG anticipates not all certificate holders will wish to

have their conditions amended those who would will be invited

to submit them to their respective force Firearms Licensing

Departments, in due course, so this can be done.

15.4 The Chair will write to the Chair of NGO.

[CharlieT]

It also covers things such as farmers needing a dog shot due to worrying sheep or if you are in a badger cull area and find yourself in the position to take part as these would not be included in normal conditions but are covered by AOLQ. A court case involving somebody's dog that was shot and your certificate didn't cover it would be interesting!!

 

I am not convinced that a dog worrying stock could, by any stretch of the imagination, be termed quarry and be shot under the AOLQ condition.

[David BASC]

This did indeed happen, in 2008 but many forces ignored it sadly. So it was repeated a few months ago after further lobbying by BASC, at the same time ACPO included the call to remove mentoring as an 'automatic' condition.

 

This was reinforced at the recent meeting Chaired by the head of ACPO organised by the NGO and where BASC gave a key note speech.

 

David

[r1steele]

 

I am not convinced that a dog worrying stock could, by any stretch of the imagination, be termed quarry and be shot under the AOLQ condition.

It has been done.

[delburt0]

It has been done.

on my cert it states any humane despatch of any animal for the preservation of another animal or human life, that says dogs worrying sheep to me, last yr a old man let his 2 bullmastiffs out of his small holding into the field I was shooting , on purpose he does it all the time allegedly , it meant me calmly walking away from the hide with my dog about 100 yds up the field , they where growling and barking, they where obviously wary as they didnt no I was there till I shot a bird and went out of the hide for it, on telling the farmer it had really knocked my confidence to shoot there as It was a very unnerving situation.

He replied with

You should have shot them both,

Hard call as in the dogs defence they no doubt where in theory trespassing and could have easily have attacked me or my dog,

But I wasn't going to give them the chance, I'm just glad the old boy eventually got them out out my hide and obviously removed me from land I have rights on and not him..

Edited October 3, 2013 by delburt0

[mr smith]

on my cert it states any humane despatch of any animal for the preservation of another animal or human life

That sounds like the standard condition allowing the use of expanding ammo,please check that it actually relates to any guns you have before shooting anything.

[mr smith]

I see the use of the words lesser and smaller in Charlie T's post and this is how i thought it worked.However when i used the word smaller in another thread about AOLQ was told this was incorrect and could be used to take other big stuff probably boar/goat what have you.

Can anyone provide a link to this?

[delburt0]

I see the use of the words lesser and smaller in Charlie T's post and this is how i thought it worked.However when i used the word smaller in another thread about AOLQ was told this was incorrect and could be used to take other big stuff probably boar/goat what have you.

Can anyone provide a link to this?

this has been passed over to basc to get a final answer on this as everyone as similar but different perceptions on this matter ..

[mr smith]

this has been passed over to basc to get a final answer on this as everyone as similar but different perceptions on this matter ..

Aye thats firearms law for you.

[delburt0]

this has been passed over to basc to get a final answer on this as everyone as similar but different perceptions on this matter ..

Looking at this but unsure until it has been verified is ~ instances are

You can use such calibre s as 22/250 to shoot rabbits , so you can use a large calibre for small vermin .

But it does not cover you for...

Shooting larger vermin such as foxes with a .17hmr (unless fox is stipulated separately on your license) you cannot shoot fox if you only have vermin on your license as fox is classed on its own on your license as (FOX CONTROL) and separate to vermin.

I will verify basc findings when I receive the email..

Edited October 3, 2013 by delburt0

[CharlieT]

on my cert it states any humane despatch of any animal for the preservation of another animal or human life, that says dogs worrying sheep to me, last yr a old man let his 2 bullmastiffs out of his small holding into the field I was shooting , on purpose he does it all the time allegedly , it meant me calmly walking away from the hide with my dog about 100 yds up the field , they where growling and barking, they where obviously wary as they didnt no I was there till I shot a bird and went out of the hide for it, on telling the farmer it had really knocked my confidence to shoot there as It was a very unnerving situation.

He replied with

You should have shot them both,

Hard call as in the dogs defence they no doubt where in theory trespassing and could have easily have attacked me or my dog,

But I wasn't going to give them the chance, I'm just glad the old boy eventually got them out out my hide and obviously removed me from land I have rights on and not him..

 

 

That sounds like the standard condition allowing the use of expanding ammo,please check that it actually relates to any guns you have before shooting anything.

 

Delburt0

 

Out of interest, can you confirm that this condition actually relates to your firearms.

[Dekers]

This has been debated at length many a time.

 

No court in the land would convict you of shooting a fox with a .22lr if you had ANY Other Lawful Quarry. (or only Vermin either)

vermin (from the Free dictionary, Online) http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vermin)

1. Various small animals or insects, such as rats or cockroaches, that are destructive, annoying, or injurious to health.

2. Animals that prey on game, such as foxes or weasels.

 

You can argue whatever you like, it says ANY, and ANY is written in Capitals on my FAC, it doesn't say Smaller, and that is also what Thames Valley Police Firearms Dept. confirm that their condition means.. ANY.

 

It doesn't matter a jot what anyone else thought or intended or meant, I fail to see any ambiguity or confusion, it says ANY!

 

You are all welcome to shoot smaller ONLY if you want, I will continue to comply with the conditions on my FAC, if it ever gets changed to Smaller I will simply tell them to enter back on my FAC all the things they took off when they issued me with AOLQ.

 

My understanding of the original lobbying and concept of AOLQ was for potentially shooting smaller quarry with larger calibres, ANY was an obvious and logical response, ie, if we are opening it up then why simply smaller, why not larger as well if required, hence ANY and NOT smaller was used!

 

Edited October 3, 2013 by Dekers

[delburt0]

Well its on my firearms License , if it was on my driving license I may question it,,

[delburt0]

This has been debated at length many a time.

 

No court in the land would convict you of shooting a fox with a .22lr if you had ANY Other Lawful Quarry.

 

That says ANY, you can argue whatever you like, it says ANY, and ANY is written in Capitals on my FAC, it doesn't say Smaller, and that is also what Thames Valley Firearms confirm that their condition means.. ANY.

 

It doesn't matter a jot what anyone else thought or intended or meant, I fail to see any ambiguity or confusion, it says ANY!

 

You are all welcome to shoot smaller ONLY if you want, I will continue to comply with the conditions on my FAC, if it ever gets changed to Smaller I will simply tell them to enter back on my FAC all the things they took off when they issued me with AOLQ.

 

My understanding of the original lobbying and concept of AOLQ was for potentially shooting smaller quarry with larger calibres, ANY was an obvious and logical response, ie, if we are opening it up then why simply smaller, why not larger as well if required, hence ANY and NOT smaller was used!

fox is not classed as vermin though it has to have its own stipulation.

[mr smith]

Tayside police (now police Scotland)told me several years ago that they included fox within vermin.I had asked for fox to be put on my 17 HMR when i applied for the slot,was told the above i asked about my 22LR,reply was does it have vermin.I said it did was told i was good to carry on,did consider asking what if i had vermin against a FAC airgun but thought best not to stir the pot.

This was a recent decision by them and i think it was a way of reducing the number of conditions the handed out and therefore i assume the workload.

 

Does it actually say anywhere that fox is not lawful quarry,i know the H.O. guidance doesn't seem to keen on it but that's not the same unlawful.

Edited October 3, 2013 by mr smith

[Kes]

I have asked for AOLQ on my open .223, so I can go on an accompanied Muntjac shoot with my rifle, to meet a 'condition' that I have four accompanied stalks which has now turned into 5 because I have yet to grass one and the chap I went with will not confirm I went on four occassions and paid £70 for each stalk (tax?)- not replied to 4 e-mails. So now, as I can prove I went on those stalks (paid by debit card), all I need is a kill and a field gralloch after 12 months I may be getting there. My .223 is conditioned for fox only so AOLQ would give me the chance to stalk somewhere else, I hope.

[wymberley]

That sounds like the standard condition allowing the use of expanding ammo,please check that it actually relates to any guns you have before shooting anything.

Well, mine does as it says I may possess...blah blah blah..... in the calibres authorised by this certificate and USE (my capitals).....blah blah......

 

on my cert it states any humane despatch of any animal for the preservation of another animal or human life,

 

On mine it says the humane killing of animals; [clause ©] and separately:

the shooting of animals for the prot...blah blah... [clause (d)]

 

Are you saying that you can't euthanise an animal?

Edited October 3, 2013 by wymberley

[colin lad]

As dekers says any

when i got my .222 i asked them if they could put AOLQ so i could shoot a fox if i came across one while out with my lr or hmr they didn't say i couldn't and license came back with it on

 

Colin

Edited October 3, 2013 by colin lad

[David BASC]

I have spoken with the firearms team here at BASC, if your licence reads Any Lawful Quarry then that is exactly what you are allowed to shoot.

 

Shooting foxes with rifles and shotguns is not illegal; BASC is certain that a ‘vermin’ condition granted for small-bore rifles includes foxes but always recommends the following best practice.

 

• Ensure that you have clearly identified the fox with a suitable backstop behind it

• That the placement of the bullet is in the heart/lung area of the animal

• That the fox is engaged at as short a distance as possible

• For .22LR; where possible use high velocity hollow point ammunition rather than sub sonic

 

 

David

[wymberley]

The silly thing is that there is a blindingly simple answer to this whole question regarding what constabulary adds what condition to your FAC.

 

If the ACPO IS actually in favour of standardisation of certificates nation-wide, as, so we are told, is BASC, why don't they gang up on the government and get the, "Additional conditions" section title changed to that of the one on a Shotgun Certificate?

 

As it really is that simple, the only possible answer is that they don't want to.

 

I can hear the rustling of certificates all across the country now.