If we could bow hunt who would own a bow

[Penelope]

A very interesting thread guys, and one that has certainly changed my views on bow hunting.

 

Not big game, but this is an eye opener.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxQPOsDgPO4

[Sprackles]

Vipa...read the page from the link I posted...there are more pics of the same animal..not a photoshop job at all

[kent]

I have seen much more impressive compound target shooting - I know people who could have shot better than than video with a recurve bow and I reckon even I as a lowly bowman could have done not much worse with my recurve.

 

I have seen 6 x's consistently at 90m with recurve bows and compounds doing the same but with much tighter grouping or smashing arrows (hence why compound targets are one shot to avoid this).

 

However, I totally agree - a bow is inherently stable at full draw and I see no reason why it is any less accurate within a sensible range than a rifle in the right hands. When I did my DSC1 in September there were very experienced guys with their own rifles failing the shooting test because they were so nervous and the grouping required at 100yds is not as high a requirement as to reach Master Bowman never mind grand master bowman - so rifles are not necessarily more accurate than bows.

The level 1 DSC rifle test is an interesting one. Personally I think it has very little to do with nerves, some people just find it hard.

[kent]

Handguns and bows normally kill by blood loss, Handguns and bows don't have enough energy to cause the same damage as HV rifle bullets. The difference in survival rates between people hit with a handgun bullet and those hit with a HV rifle bullet confirms this.

 

 

Were as HV rifles kill by the fire putting Evil spirits inside the quarry, just like the Old African porters believed LOL

[oscarsdad]

The level 1 DSC rifle test is an interesting one. Personally I think it has very little to do with nerves, some people just find it hard.

Hard? It is not hard at all...I am not bragging because I don't think it was difficult but I passed with an old estate rifle I had never fired before first time, so to fail all 3 attempts with your own rifle and a lot more experience than me is either nerves, or an indication that you should not be shooting at live quarry.

[kent]

Hard? It is not hard at all...I am not bragging because I don't think it was difficult but I passed with an old estate rifle I had never fired before first time, so to fail all 3 attempts with your own rifle and a lot more experience than me is either nerves, or an indication that you should not be shooting at live quarry.

I don't find it hard but from experience of watching candidates (some of whom came back on another course to re-sit after failing all attempts many do).

[oscarsdad]

I don't find it hard but from experience of watching candidates (some of whom came back on another course to re-sit after failing all attempts many do).

I don't doubt people find it difficult, but if they do then they should not be shooting at deer.

[kent]

I don't doubt people find it difficult, but if they do then they should not be shooting at deer.

But the fact is they do, among those who have failed on the shooting test I can include two FC rangers. Many who shoot deer today still have never or will never sit DSC1. I use this per "shooting with a bow" its not the tool its the man behind it and if he is aware of and respects his limits. This is what appeals to me about trying a bow it reduces those limits range wise which at the end of the day is what "stalking" is all about. To be fair I have taken an odd really good target shooter out for their first deer, level 1 as a paper target they would walk first go but still one guy managed to make a fool of himself on some very easy live deer early doors- he has after that got over his "buck fever" and taken some nice clean kills Edited November 6, 2013 by kent

[sirgoldalot]

It all comes down to the skills of the hunter...bowhunting is a skill...good marksmanship is a skill ...its what you put in to get the rewards...

when shooting at 3 d nationals i put hours and hours of practise in... when shooting at rabbits with rimmys i put hundreds of practise rounds in..when pigeon shooting i like to practise with clays...

I think i might try and brush up on field craft and shoot with a camera.. its all linked in together ....learnt and earn`t skills...

Edited November 6, 2013 by sirgoldalot

[casts_by_fly]

A very interesting thread guys, and one that has certainly changed my views on bow hunting.

 

Not big game, but this is an eye opener.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxQPOsDgPO4

If bows were legal here, i would do a driven pheasant day with one in a heartbeat.

 

Rick

[Paddy Galore!]

no i wouldn't, not that i wouldn't have a bow cos i like them, but i wouldn't hunt with one.

[Muddy Funker]

Have a look at this......just posting the pic, making no statement.

 

Is this a joke?

 

It couldn't look anymore photoshopped.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Muddy Funker

[ordnance]

 

Is this a joke?

 

It couldn't look anymore photoshopped.

Edit.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2013 by ordnance

[Muddy Funker]

I've no idea that's why I posed the question?

 

I'm looking via an iPhone so maybe not seeing the photos as they're supposed to be seen.

 

A picture of a fluffed shot with an arrow is always going to be more provocative than its rifle equivalent isn't it.

[ordnance]

 

A picture of a fluffed shot with an arrow is always going to be more provocative than its rifle equivalent isn't it.

That's true a bad shot with a rifle bullet might not be as evident and as disturbing to see. That's one reason that it won't be allowed in the UK can you imagine uproar if deer were walking around like that.

Edited November 6, 2013 by ordnance

[Muddy Funker]

The photos don't look good mate that's for sure.

 

As others have said I think it's down to the shooter and how responsible they are.

 

But I'd say the margin of error is greater with bow than rifle, just my useless opinion.

[Gimlet]

But the fact is they do, among those who have failed on the shooting test I can include two FC rangers. Many who shoot deer today still have never or will never sit DSC1. I use this per "shooting with a bow" its not the tool its the man behind it and if he is aware of and respects his limits. This is what appeals to me about trying a bow it reduces those limits range wise which at the end of the day is what "stalking" is all about. To be fair I have taken an odd really good target shooter out for their first deer, level 1 as a paper target they would walk first go but still one guy managed to make a fool of himself on some very easy live deer early doors- he has after that got over his "buck fever" and taken some nice clean kills

 

 

Ain't that the truth. Archers who can put three arrows in a 3" group at 40 yards are doing better than quite a few stalkers I've seen with a rifle.

 

When bow hunting do you draw the string past the jaw or into contact with the centre of the mouth and nose as with target shooting, and if the latter, can you actually flinch with a bow?

[casts_by_fly]

 

 

Ain't that the truth. Archers who can put three arrows in a 3" group at 40 yards are doing better than quite a few stalkers I've seen with a rifle.

 

When bow hunting do you draw the string past the jaw or into contact with the centre of the mouth and nose as with target shooting, and if the latter, can you actually flinch with a bow?

 

gimlet,

 

No, what you see target archers doing with a recurve (whole hand under the nock and arrow lined with the eye) is not how it wrks in the field. Most guys will use a release aid like this:

 

which uses the jaws to grab a secondary string loop that is above and below the nock like this:

 

 

 

When you draw you have an anchor point, sometimes a permanent ball or plastic disk attached to the string and you draw until that point touches the anchor point on your face. I used to use a small string ball and anchor it in the corner of my mouth. That let me anchor the hand with the release against my jaw (i.e. the back of the base of my right thumb was aligned with my jawbone. Here is a pretty good article explaining how it works:

 

http://www.huntersfriend.com/compound_bow_draw_length_discussion.html

 

You can flinch with a bow. That is part of the mental aspect of shooting. Some guys to go a back tension release instead which is a whole 'nuther discussion. I preferred to have a very light but smooth and crisp release trigger that I knew would break exactly when I wanted it to, not too dissimilar to a rifle trigger. I twigged the release shooting at a deer once. It was a heavy trigger on a cheap release. The arrow sailed 2' over his back, so far that he didn't even move until I reached for another arrow.

 

thanks,

rick

[Penelope]

Is this what I have heard referred to as the 'kiss button'?

 

 

gimlet,

 

No, what you see target archers doing with a recurve (whole hand under the nock and arrow lined with the eye) is not how it wrks in the field. Most guys will use a release aid like this:

 

which uses the jaws to grab a secondary string loop that is above and below the nock like this:

 

 

 

When you draw you have an anchor point, sometimes a permanent ball or plastic disk attached to the string and you draw until that point touches the anchor point on your face. I used to use a small string ball and anchor it in the corner of my mouth. That let me anchor the hand with the release against my jaw (i.e. the back of the base of my right thumb was aligned with my jawbone. Here is a pretty good article explaining how it works:

 

http://www.huntersfriend.com/compound_bow_draw_length_discussion.html

 

You can flinch with a bow. That is part of the mental aspect of shooting. Some guys to go a back tension release instead which is a whole 'nuther discussion. I preferred to have a very light but smooth and crisp release trigger that I knew would break exactly when I wanted it to, not too dissimilar to a rifle trigger. I twigged the release shooting at a deer once. It was a heavy trigger on a cheap release. The arrow sailed 2' over his back, so far that he didn't even move until I reached for another arrow.

 

thanks,

rick

[oscarsdad]

Is this what I have heard referred to as the 'kiss button'?

 

Similar - a kisser is a small plastic disc on the string which you would draw until it was between your lips to ensure a consistent draw.

 

Draw length is fairly consistent on a compound bow because the cams are set for your draw length and you can only pull so far before a mechanical stop.

 

On a recurve bow, draw can vary a lot - depends on the length of your arms and in an individual on muscle position / usage in your arms, back and shoulders. Variation in draw with change the point of impact for an arrow a specific sight mark. A clicker is used to help with this which is a thin piece if metal or carbon which sits over the arrow and when the tip of the arrow is pulled past the clicker, it springs back against the riser (bow handle) and clicks - giving the archer an audible signal that they are at the direct draw length. This does have inherent problems as people end up being trained unintentionally to release when they hear the click rather than when they are ready and I have known people to fire arrows through their clicker (and therefore remove fletchings) because they heard the clicker of the guy next to them go off!

[Vipa]

Is this what I have heard referred to as the 'kiss button'?

 

No.. a kiss button is recurve terminology and kit (but some compound shooters use them to ensure a consistent anchor point) Remember, with a recurve or longbow you could, in theory, keep pulling the string untill the limbs snapped... there is no 'wall' (will explain later) so.. to get a consistent point of impact, one needs to make sure that 1. the bow is drawn to EXACTLY the same point each time and 2. the head and eye are in EXACTLY the same position each time.. small variations in either will mean a moving POI.. thing of having a rifle with ONLY a foresight... it wouldbe almost impossible to get consistency...

 

So.. the kiss button is a small plastic disc attached to the string that contacts with some point of the mouth.. it doesn't matter where on the mouth as long as it is the same place each time, that helps ensure that the head and eye is in the same spot each time and also gives a 'gross' indication when the correct draw is being reached.. A clicker on the arrow rest gives the 'fine' indication of correct draw.. it is usually a small piece of plastic or metal that rides along the top of the arrow and 'falls off' the end making a clicking noise when the arrow reaces a certain point... the idea is to release as soon as the click is heard or felt...

 

so.. the idea is that consistent head/string/sight alignment and consistent draw can be achieved..

 

Now.. with a compound there is a 'let off' and a 'wall' when youdraw, the cams and pulleys act to reduce the weight being held at full draw.. so for example my 60lb bow is only 15LB at full draw meaning I can hold it much longer.. I would be able to hold 60 at full draw for only a few seconds without wobbling.. 15lb.. and it is the weight out front that becomes the issue but means holding for much longer is possible..

 

Most compound bows have 'peep sights' which are a small disc with an apperture inserted between the fibres of the bow string.. this acts like the rear sight of iron sights on a rifle and ensures consistent alignment.. it also means that a kiss button or similar is redundant as alignment is all but assured, however most shooters also like to have the string contacting the face in the same place on the face at full draw just to be sure.. modern sights with the IQ system almost make the peep redundant but even when used with a peep ensure that there is never any torsion going on at the bow and again assuring consistency.. peep sights/IQ sight systems/spirit levels... the accuracy and consistency achieved is quite staggering.. at 15 yard (all I have in my garden) if I shoot 5 arrows at the same spot on my foam block they are all trying to get in the same hole thus bending the shafts making extraction a nightmare! I always shoot at different spots now!!!

 

Clickers are completely unecessary as it is not possible to over draw a compound... the wall is the wall and once you hit it you cant draw any further.

[Vipa]

You beat me to it Oscarsdad

[kent]

 

 

Ain't that the truth. Archers who can put three arrows in a 3" group at 40 yards are doing better than quite a few stalkers I've seen with a rifle.

 

When bow hunting do you draw the string past the jaw or into contact with the centre of the mouth and nose as with target shooting, and if the latter, can you actually flinch with a bow?

 

I suspect we both might have lost our rose tinted specs as regards the average stalker over the years of cleaning up the mess

[Penelope]

Thanks OD & Vipa.

 

I have only used a bow on one occasion (flat bow I think) at a Barclays National Clay Shoot back in the early 90's. It had a kiss button, hence asking. I did ok with though, once I'd worked out the hold over, hitting the bull or inner ring every time at 30m.

[oscarsdad]

You beat me to it Oscarsdad

Your response was a bit more detailed tho - I have only used a compound once and decided it was cheating lol! The compound archers at my club spent more time tinkering with screw on dangly bits and stringy things than they did shooting lol!