GP's letter to licensing

[David BASC]

_{I have not told any lies and I hope no one on here is making such allegations....}

 

_{BASC have been saying since at least August that there was no legal basis for these extra forms, see the BASC web site. But it was apparent, based on what we had heard, that there were delays if forms were not filled in.}

 

_{Consequently during October we were asking members to get in touch if they had been asked to fill in a form, those that did were given advice by our fireams team.}

 

_{When I am back in the office in the morning I will find the page in S&C where we told members about not filling in forms...}

 

_David

[phaedra1106]

Durham force,

Started my renewal on 6 September my certs expire tomorrow. Cheque has been cashed,had the home visit still no new certs reason GPs letter not received .They can't handle the previous paperwork never mind starting pilot schemes!!

Ring them first thing tomorrow morning and demand a temporary certificate be issued immediately.

 

They will try to say no and tell you that you don't need one as they are aware of the situation. This is complete rubbish and not a defence if you are asked to produce a certificate for whatever firearms etc. are in your possession. Issuing one shows up as a failure on their departments performance statistics which is why they are loathe to issue them, however, you have the right to demand one so you can still be in legal possession of your firearms.

[Kes]

The issue of temporary certificates is another issue nationally. The police will not issue them - same happened to me in Cheshire. If they are not needed its clear they will bend the rules when needed for their own benefit yet it does NOT happen the other way with say over allocation ammo holding and yet surely they are both of the same seriousness ?

[bostonmick]

Ring them first thing tomorrow morning and demand a temporary certificate be issued immediately.

 

They will try to say no and tell you that you don't need one as they are aware of the situation. This is complete rubbish and not a defence if you are asked to produce a certificate for whatever firearms etc. are in your possession. Issuing one shows up as a failure on their departments performance statistics which is why they are loathe to issue them, however, you have the right to demand one so you can still be in legal possession of your firearms.

Put the request in writing and send recorded delivery.verbal requests are not worth the paper they are written on

[David BASC]

Just to confirm,

 

BASC put advice into the Sept / Oct S&C magazine about the fact that what Durham were doing was outside of the legal requirement and that the forms did not need to be filled in and repeated this in the November December issue.

 

David

[Luckyshot]

_{I have not told any lies and I hope no one on here is making such allegations....}

 

_{BASC have been saying since at least August that there was no legal basis for these extra forms, see the BASC web site. But it was apparent, based on what we had heard, that there were delays if forms were not filled in.}

 

_{Consequently during October we were asking members to get in touch if they had been asked to fill in a form, those that did were given advice by our fireams team.}

 

_{When I am back in the office in the morning I will find the page in S&C where we told members about not filling in forms...}

 

_David

 

I will stand by my statement maybe you (basc) have said dont fill the forms in, if so why is your info misleading,

 

Durham Constabulary has been accused of exceeding its legal authority by demanding that firearm and shotgun certificate applicants provide and pay for a medical report from their GPs. The UK’s largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), is advising its members that the additional requirement goes beyond the existing stipulations set out by law and in Home Office guidance on firearms licensing. The law says that any relevant medical conditions must be declared on the application form, which can then be checked by the police with the applicant’s GP. Durham Constabulary is now asking every applicant to submit a separate medical consent form and to meet any fee charged by their GP.

BASC’s director of firearms Bill Harriman said: “The new requirements offer no benefits to either applicants or to public safety; it is discriminatory against those who live in the Durham area, as those who live in adjoining force regions will not have to pay and it will increase delays in processing applications.

“Unfortunately Durham police has an appalling record for its administration of firearms licensing. It missed clear opportunities to remove guns from Michael Atherton who murdered three women before killing himself in 2012. In the ensuing enquiry Durham licensing staff claimed they were unaware of Home Office guidance on licensing, which has been published for over ten years. The force has also had problems with corrupt licensing officers selling guns to the public.

“Adding new requirements for applicants which have no legal basis will not help to reform the Constabulary’s record or performance.”

 

Not once in the above statement does it say do not fill the form in. It should have said something like, The UK’s largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), is advising its members that the additional requirement goes beyond the existing stipulations set out by law and in Home Office guidance on firearms licensing and should not be filled in under any circumstances.

 

You could probably word it better but something along those lines would have made it clear for ALL to see.

 

Maybe we can put this thread to bed now then, just to clarify for any one else in this situation. Are BASC now saying DO NOT fill this form in when applying/renewing your sgc/fac.

Edited December 9, 2013 by Luckyshot

[David BASC]

The statement you have kindly posted is from August this year, I fully understand that as you are no longer a BASC member you will not have seen what’s been printed in our membership magazine since this.

 

 

Perhaps you would like to look at the BASC web site on the firearms page or the northern page, I hope this makes the point very clear, its a repeat of what we put in our magazine.

 

Best wishes

 

David

[Teal]

If you are not a BASC member, you shouldn't be knocking BASC for the fact that they put relevant information into their own magazine which gets sent to their members.

 

BASC do a hell of a lot, and to my mind if they didn't publish so widely a lot of their advice it would stop the free-loaders and piggie-backers who want BASC advice and support but (for whatever reason) don't want to put their hand in their pocket and pay a subscription.

[JonathanL]

 

Dont worry BASC has it in hand

 

On a more serios note, contact them and tell them you are not taking part in their pilot scheme and require your fac/sgc processing or refused in writing stating the legal requireents you have not met.

 

Precisely!

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Ring them first thing tomorrow morning and demand a temporary certificate be issued immediately.

 

They will try to say no and tell you that you don't need one as they are aware of the situation. This is complete rubbish and not a defence if you are asked to produce a certificate for whatever firearms etc. are in your possession. Issuing one shows up as a failure on their departments performance statistics which is why they are loathe to issue them, however, you have the right to demand one so you can still be in legal possession of your firearms.

 

Very true. Too add to that; the most current HO guidance says that a section 7 permit should be issued as a matter of routeine where the applicant has behaved responsibly. They should not refuse this.

 

J.

[bostonmick]

Can we just take this back a little as has been said it is not a legal obligation to do this but as we all know legal cases can take a very long time to sort out and it will only be the individual that suffers in the meantime.as the mek has pointed out he is now in the position of having no current cert so I would guess making it unlawfull for him to hold firearms.(correct me if wrong)if he had provided the gp stuff they asked for he may have been spared this anguish he is now going through and the legal side could still have been argued.also if as they have said it is the only obstacle remaining in his renew then he would have an even stronger case if he had supplied.unfortunately it is the little man once again who will bear the brunt of this but that is life I am afraid now that you all have a case in reality I feel that my original opinion is somewhat justified at this stage.it is still only my own personal opinion .i wish mek all the best with his problem.

Edited December 9, 2013 by bostonmick

[Penelope]

But he is not legally bound to, but the Police are legally bound to provide him with a section 7 temporary permit.

 

Can we just take this back a little as has been said it is not a legal obligation to do this but as we all know legal cases can take a very long time to sort out and it will only be the individual that suffers in the meantime.as the mek has pointed out he is now in the position of having no current cert so I would guess making it unlawfull for him to hold firearms.(correct me if wrong)if he had provided the gp stuff they asked for he may have been spared this anguish he is now going through and the legal side could still have been argued.also if as they have said it is the only obstacle remaining in his renew then he would have an even stronger case if he had supplied.unfortunately it is the little man once again who will bear the brunt of this but that is life I am afraid now that you all have a case in reality I feel that my original opinion is somewhat justified at this stage.it is still only my own personal opinion .i wish mek all the best with his problem.

[David BASC]

And if The mek is a member our firearms team are standing by to help

 

David

[bostonmick]

But he is not legally bound to, but the Police are legally bound to provide him with a section 7 temporary permit.

 

I did clearly state in my first few lines that it was not a legal obligation to do so.my point was that in the short term and this particular occasion it may have meant a faster conclusion less stress for the individual.and the legal aspect would still be dealt with in due course.at the moment he has neither a cert or a sect7.

Regardless of laws.

Edited December 9, 2013 by bostonmick

[bostonmick]

 

And if The mek is a member our firearms team are standing by to help

 

David[/quote

 

That is good to know.would it get him his renew today?. Also as their are many more cert holders that are not members than those that are the majority of people will have to tackle the establishment alone.i am not a member of basc this is due to only wanting to shoot registered clays off of my own land.and do not really see the sense of belonging to both.yes I have written in and asked what they are planning to do about this matter and as yet heard nothing.3 weeks now.

 

M

[David BASC]

We can do wonders, but not miracles!

 

Of course, belonging to a shooting organisation is more than just about insurance etc, as I have said many times before and its quite surprising isn’t it how many shooting organisations seem not to have done anything at all about the situation in Durham. Or even put any information on their web sites…I wonder why?, and perhaps so do their members….

 

I know there are many non BASC members and although we cannot give them advice and guidance over the phone or with face to face visits etc., all and any changes we deliver with Durham police will, of course, benefit all shooters, even those who chose not to support the work we do….

 

David

[Scully]

)if he had provided the gp stuff they asked for he may have been spared this anguish he is now going through and the legal side could still have been argued.also if as they have said it is the only obstacle remaining in his renew then he would have an even stronger case if he had supplied.

You're assuming The Mek hasn't supplied a GP's letter. He hasn't said one way or the other, (unless I've missed a post) only that the reason for the delay is due to licensing not receiving a GP's letter. Whether this means he's complied but licensing haven't yet received it or licensing haven't received it because he hasn't complied, isn't clear.

One CPSA member I spoke to was told that although the GP's letter was not a legal requirement, compliance depended on how much you wanted your license! Worth the membership fee?

For me, all this matter has done is highlight the absolute need for one representative voice for UK shooters, and with impending licensing in Scotland I include airgunners here. I haven't heard or read a single thing from the CA, the NRA, the NGO or any of the other representative bodies on this issue, and the only utterance from the CPSA I have heard is the one I've just mentioned. We are a fractured, disjointed minority, represented by fractured disjointed bodies. No wonder the authorities walk all over us.

[Luckyshot]

If you are not a BASC member, you shouldn't be knocking BASC for the fact that they put relevant information into their own magazine which gets sent to their members.

 

BASC do a hell of a lot, and to my mind if they didn't publish so widely a lot of their advice it would stop the free-loaders and piggie-backers who want BASC advice and support but (for whatever reason) don't want to put their hand in their pocket and pay a subscription.

 

This info may be in there magazine but how many actually read it ? I know I never used too. If you search the BASC website for Durham/medical all you get is the old out of date infomation so what are members expected to do diferently to find this infomation if they didnt read the magazine.

[Davyo]

BASC,will do all they can to help but you couldnt write it into a comedy scetch what Durham get up to.The mek is my shooting buddy so I know what he's having to deal with.As for BASC they will do everything within their powers.My 14yr old son got his FAC/SGC through within a week of BASC contacting Durham on my behalf.It initaly was dragging on for nearly 8mths with letters being sent to his school ect but hadn't so they where waiting for a reply they where never going to get.FLO visiting my son and didnt know that I held FAC/SGC.The licences eventally turned up with his name wrong lol.

[bostonmick]

You're assuming The Mek hasn't supplied a GP's letter. He hasn't said one way or the other, (unless I've missed a post) only that the reason for the delay is due to licensing not receiving a GP's letter. Whether this means he's complied but licensing haven't yet received it or licensing haven't received it because he hasn't complied, isn't clear.

One CPSA member I spoke to was told that although the GP's letter was not a legal requirement, compliance depended on how much you wanted your license! Worth the membership fee?

For me, all this matter has done is highlight the absolute need for one representative voice for UK shooters, and with impending licensing in Scotland I include airgunners here. I haven't heard or read a single thing from the CA, the NRA, the NGO or any of the other representative bodies on this issue, and the only utterance from the CPSA I have heard is the one I've just mentioned. We are a fractured, disjointed minority, represented by fractured disjointed bodies. No wonder the authorities walk all over us.

I have like many others not seen one of these forms they are giving out I took it to mean he had not given in the gp form.i cant see that they would need two from th gp unless of course there is a medical condition they want extra information for but that is going away from the original post.i have no doubt that the shooting organisations will be involved along the way probably for implementation talks once they have decided to change the rules.its all very good the people saying phone them and demand and its not law don't do it.but it is not their cert wait until its their time.he could always take legal advice if he has loads of cash to throw around.it is all a bit messy at this time but I stand by what I say that I would supply the information they wanted and then it would give better grounds for a problem free renew.it would help if everyone with a fac/sgc was to join one of the org's but I suppose it is cheaper to just moan.

[ROBLATCH]

durham have been talking of doing this for quite some time before piloted,i recently posted it http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/257014-medical-required/

a few months ago.

[Luckyshot]

I have like many others not seen one of these forms they are giving out I took it to mean he had not given in the gp form.i cant see that they would need two from th gp unless of course there is a medical condition they want extra information for but that is going away from the original post.i have no doubt that the shooting organisations will be involved along the way probably for implementation talks once they have decided to change the rules.its all very good the people saying phone them and demand and its not law don't do it.but it is not their cert wait until its their time.he could always take legal advice if he has loads of cash to throw around.it is all a bit messy at this time but I stand by what I say that I would supply the information they wanted and then it would give better grounds for a problem free renew.it would help if everyone with a fac/sgc was to join one of the org's but I suppose it is cheaper to just moan.

 

If you have been following this post that is exactly what I have done. I applied for my renewal (fac)in october and picked it up thismorning. So the advice I gave the mek was first hand experience not hear say,

[David BASC]

I take it luckyshot that you have not bothered to look on the BASC firearms page or the BASC northern regional page where there is more up to date information as I advised earlier - you seem determined to ignore my help, well that's your prerogative.

 

Honestly, your continued little pops at BASC is getting a bit tiresome, perhaps your time and energy would be better spent getting the association who you pay a subscription to, to get their web site more up to date about what the are doing about this issue...

[THE MEK]

The forms where handed in too my GP but where Mislaid.Durham phoned my GP too ask what was happening and where told that no one knew what to do with them.

Neither Durham or my GP notified me of the situation until I rang the FLO on Friday ,they have issued a temp cert but have not sent it out.

Surgery are trying to speed up the relevant info to send to Durham at an estimated cost between50-70 notes for EACH renewal FAC/SGC

I left BASC earlier this year due to financial restraints so didn't know which way to go

[bostonmick]

The forms where handed in too my GP but where Mislaid.Durham phoned my GP too ask what was happening and where told that no one knew what to do with them.

Neither Durham or my GP notified me of the situation until I rang the FLO on Friday ,they have issued a temp cert but have not sent it out.

Surgery are trying to speed up the relevant info to send to Durham at an estimated cost between50-70 notes for EACH renewal FAC/SGC

I left BASC earlier this year due to financial restraints so didn't know which way to go

can you tell me exactly what information they asked for from the doctor on the form