Dekers Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 shooting is one of the most exspensive hobby's there is yet I am amazed at the attitude of some shooters you choose to shoot so we the shooters should pay for our certs.so you part with £50 to apply for your sgc well it takes uparound four hours of the fao time to do his visit and report so there is your money gone.then someone else at the police station has to process his work to get it signed off now your into debit then the license is issued more cost then the fao comes back to inspect your security for your new guns.and we are only just starting.on renewal another visit and who can blame them for asking the doctor for a letter they have to cover themselves in the event of a tragedy.we are quick enough to jump on the police and other government bodies when things go wrong but do not want to pay the true cost of services.a sgc or fac is a luxury.also look at how many certificates there are out there and then look at how many are members of the cpsa and basc it is pitiful between them they only have around 120 thousand members perhaps if people joined then they like the nra in America would have some teeth to go up against the establishment I am no fan of America but they at least are prepared to pay for their pleasure and fight to keep it.it is not your right to be allowed to roam the countryside with a loaded weapon it is a privilege.and as such I feel sure will never be paid for out of public funds. OK, the forum is free to make comments but where do you get this notion, and when are you going to grow some balls? It is my right and it isn't a privilege, fact is its my living and I have to jump through enough hoops already without you rolling over and saying please shaft me some more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 So just paying up and going along with it is the best long term plan? Your HGV medical includes some actual tests and you can choose where it is done and who/what you pay. It isn't as if your not already paying for your GP to hold your medical records.... Asking GPs to make a safety judgement is dangerous territory what next psychological testing? Why not....... You mention a good point which I forgot to pick up on before; HGV tests and driving tests in general. You do not need a driving licence, or any other type of authority, to own or use a motor vehicle in private. A driving licence relates purely to your use of publicly provided roads. I can happily buy, own, possess and use motor vehicles in private and keep the state completely in the dark about it if I so choose. I only have to tell them and pass tests if I want to use one in a public place. Now, if the police or state are planning on providing some public ranges and hunting estates in with the fee........! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) You mention a good point which I forgot to pick up on before; HGV tests and driving tests in general. You do not need a driving licence, or any other type of authority, to own or use a motor vehicle in private. A driving licence relates purely to your use of publicly provided roads. I can happily buy, own, possess and use motor vehicles in private and keep the state completely in the dark about it if I so choose. I only have to tell them and pass tests if I want to use one in a public place. Now, if the police or state are planning on providing some public ranges and hunting estates in with the fee........! J. my hgv medical is done not for my benefit but to try and safeguard the public in checking to see as far as possible that I am safe to drive in public.sounds similar.the roads are not provided by the public but by road tax and even more these days by private investment.and if the police were to provide range's for the public surely the public that use it or work there should be given a similar assurance as to fitness to hold the cert as the public with my hgv.as a side note to this if they did provide national public ranges and grounds I wonder how many would use them,would it be more than take up membership of our organisations.something to ponder Edited November 18, 2013 by bostonmick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROBLATCH Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 my hgv medical is done not for my benefit but to try and safeguard the public in checking to see as far as possible that I am safe to drive in public.sounds similar.the roads are not provided by the public but by road tax and even more these days by private investment.and if the police were to provide range's for the public surely the public that use it or work there should be given a similar assurance as to fitness to hold the cert as the public with my hgv.as a side note to this if they did provide national public ranges and grounds I wonder how many would use them,would it be more than take up membership of our organisations.something to ponder and what would the cost be to that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 .also don't get me started on psychological testing.that should be reserved for semi auto and pump owners. Why stop there? There are plenty of people who think those people who show an interest in guns, and shooting living creatures for recreation should be psychologically tested, including many serving Police officers, so you're not alone there. The future of shooting is assured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 my hgv medical is done not for my benefit but to try and safeguard the public in checking to see as far as possible that I am safe to drive in public.sounds similar. Yes but they do actual tests, mandated by law and you have a choice in provider, FOr those not familar with D4's https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/203049/D4.pdf Quite comprehensive. Also national as required by the DVLA. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/139548/INF4D_250113.pdf Somewhat different to the situation regarding SGC/FAC also Atherton and Bird would have both passed medicals to taxi drivers........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Yes but they do actual tests, mandated by law and you have a choice in provider, FOr those not familar with D4's https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/203049/D4.pdf Quite comprehensive. Also national as required by the DVLA. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/139548/INF4D_250113.pdf Somewhat different to the situation regarding SGC/FAC also Atherton and Bird would have both passed medicals to taxi drivers........ maybe they would I don't know as I never had access to their medical records and never knew either of them.the police are not asking for a medical just checking to see if you have a record of depression and if you are a drug abuser.now who could object to that.apart from a manic drug addict.also as I said in a previous post if we had a two tier system then we could choose the level of service we wanted and at no cost to anyone but the individual.i would like to take this back to the original post in as much as apart from ranting on here about the law what do you all propose to do to stop this outrageous infringement of our right to a decent service from the civil servants we employ.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikk Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 maybe they would I don't know as I never had access to their medical records and never knew either of them.the police are not asking for a medical just checking to see if you have a record of depression and if you are a drug abuser.now who could object to that.apart from a manic drug addict.also as I said in a previous post if we had a two tier system then we could choose the level of service we wanted and at no cost to anyone but the individual.i would like to take this back to the original post in as much as apart from ranting on here about the law what do you all propose to do to stop this outrageous infringement of our right to a decent service from the civil servants we employ.. So depressed people are more likely to go on gun crazy killing sprees are they? Atherton was a drunk and loosing the plot, Bird was in trouble with HMRC and also losing the plot these aren't people who have gone to the doctors because they are feeling down in the dumps. In fact it is the opposite, because they didn't seek help (their personalities stopped them from doing so) they got deeper and deeper in to a hole they felt they couldn't climb out of...what kind of sane person chooses murder to solve minor issues in their lives? There are hundreds of thousands of people suffer from so called depression but in reality its just a name to describe the misery of life when things aren't going your way, most of us have been there and some cope better than others. The average person who feels depressed is a million miles away from Atherton, in fact getting out in the open air is the perfect tonic for winter blues or being down in the dumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) maybe they would I don't know as I never had access to their medical records and never knew either of them.the police are not asking for a medical just checking to see if you have a record of depression and if you are a drug abuser. NO that isnt what they are asking at all............. To improve information sharing between the medical profession and the police with regards to firearms, the BMA reached an agreement with the Association of Chief Police Officers that the police will notify a GP (by letter) if any of their patients have been issued or reissued with a certificate, asking if they have any concerns about their suitability to hold a weapon, We are aware the current system of obtaining information is causing concern for GPs. The BMA and ACPO are looking for a longer and more enduring solution, however owing to the current legislation governing firearms licensing this will take longer than initially expected. In the interim the BMA has agreed that the letters will continue to be sent out to doctors. Doctors are reminded that they are under no obligation to respond to these letters, but should they decide not to, doctors should inform the police as it will otherwise be assumed that there is nothing relevant on the medical record. Where doctors are happy to respond to these letters, consent to the disclosure of any information should be sought as the letter does not currently indicate that consent has been given. If the patient does not consent to disclosure, this should ordinarily be respected, although the police must be informed to that effect. If, however, the doctor believes that the patient presents an immediate risk of serious harm to themselves or others, information should be disclosed even in the face of an explicit refusal. Although the current letter from the police states that it does not have to be retained, the BMA has been advised that doctors can record the request for information in the medical record and indicate what action, if any, they have undertaken. We are seeking to change the wording of the letter to reflect this position. There is no nationally agreed fee for this work. It is the BMAs view that the police should pay for any work undertaken, however we are aware the police do not take this view. Obligations to disclose information to the police where individuals with access to firearms may present a risk of serious harm to themselves or others must always take precedent over payment. Edited November 18, 2013 by HDAV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 So depressed people are more likely to go on gun crazy killing sprees are they? Atherton was a drunk and loosing the plot, Bird was in trouble with HMRC and also losing the plot these aren't people who have gone to the doctors because they are feeling down in the dumps. In fact it is the opposite, because they didn't seek help (their personalities stopped them from doing so) they got deeper and deeper in to a hole they felt they couldn't climb out of...what kind of sane person chooses murder to solve minor issues in their lives? There are hundreds of thousands of people suffer from so called depression but in reality its just a name to describe the misery of life when things aren't going your way, most of us have been there and some cope better than others. The average person who feels depressed is a million miles away from Atherton, in fact getting out in the open air is the perfect tonic for winter blues or being down in the dumps. Quite agree I do know about depression and other strains of mental health issues I have two daughters who are both graduates in the suject and working in NHS hospitals.however you omitted to say what you propose to do to stand up against the back door entrance of further conditions on your certs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) stand up against the back door entrance of further conditions on your certs.Not bend over and pay for the privilege......... Edited November 18, 2013 by HDAV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Not bend over and pay for the privilege......... And still no answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikk Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 (edited) Quite agree I do know about depression and other strains of mental health issues I have two daughters who are both graduates in the suject and working in NHS hospitals.however you omitted to say what you propose to do to stand up against the back door entrance of further conditions on your certs. Well since BASC don't do anything apart from 'improve' our forms slightly I'll probably not be renewing with them and join the NGO. What else can I do....you are right I'm not going to make life difficult for myself after all isn't that why we have these big shooting organizations? I am just going to jump the hoops as they come but I wont encourage more bureaucracy and I damn sure wont be paying 'organizations' that sit back and do nothing. In principle I have no issue with some form of link between the GP and Police but only if done sensibly. In theory a GP should be getting in touch with 'someone' if they have concerns for the safety of themselves or other people (don't they do this already?) the fact guns are involved is moot in my opinion....surely the same flg should be raised on the basis they might drive a car in to a bus stop or go on a knife wielding killing spree in to a school. My point is the mental health thing on the form encompasses depression as if it is something that should stop you owning a gun, but as there are many scales along that spectrum I don't think this should be black and white. Some people are more likely to talk to a GP when the problem isn't really that bad, others keep simmering away and tell no one until things get to breaking point, in my opinion the honest and open people are the least likely to do anything wrong as they're recognised they are struggling and have looked for help. If you are dangerous because you are down in the dumps then you could argue that they should take you away from kids, and stop you from driving. There is too much stigma for being depressed and lets face it if someone is depressed and has a gun they are not likely to go to the doctors now are they! My worry with things like this is that while it might sound like a good idea it might do more hard than good and prevent people seeking help because they feel they will be persecuted for not feeling well. My point is statistically a large proportion of people even on this forum should have suffered from some kind of depression whether it be mild or due to stress, most people cope with it, some talk to the doctors and a very tiny proportion leap of a bridge or do something even worse I'd be curious to read more about the mental state of the people who have murdered with legally owned guns/firearms. It's hard to formulate an opinion but I would imagine the mass killers had some kind of psychotic breakdown. There are people out there who are very good at hiding their psychological problems especially killers. I'd also imagined the severely depressed are more likely to just top themselves. Edited Edited November 19, 2013 by Nikk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 And still no answer NO the answer is do not comply with unlawful requests as it will become the norm then it will become law, Don't comply with the request, they cannot refuse a renewal on this basis, the law is quite clear as is the guidance, they may contact your GP to ask if there is any reason the GP knows of not to grant a renewal or application, they will inform the GP either way, there is no need for you pay the GP and no need to ask for a GP to make a judgement call. If there are concerning notes or diagnosis in your medical files these will be referred to generally the force medical officer/examiner for review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) NO the answer is do not comply with unlawful requests as it will become the norm then it will become law, Don't comply with the request, they cannot refuse a renewal on this basis, the law is quite clear as is the guidance, they may contact your GP to ask if there is any reason the GP knows of not to grant a renewal or application, they will inform the GP either way, there is no need for you pay the GP and no need to ask for a GP to make a judgement call. If there are concerning notes or diagnosis in your medical files these will be referred to generally the force medical officer/examiner for review. You are quite entitled to deal with your renewal any way you see fit and I would do the same.as one of the earlier posts said they will most likely not renew their basc membership and this is also part of the reason why we will always be on the back foot.we need a strong organisation to fight for us and the only way to have that is in numbers then demand they are seen to be acting in your best interest.by the time I renew the gp letter could well be a requirment so its all academic really.it would be interesting to see how long you would wait for your ticket if you did say no.also as I read it basc say this is not a legal requirment but I have read nowhere that they are acting on it.so in the absence of that kind of protest I doubt the single shooter will fair very well. Edited November 19, 2013 by bostonmick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 I have a long way to my next renewal but I shall be refusing to pay for medical 'certfication', I have no problem if my doctor deems me unfit, to tell the police immediately but £100 for a renewal isnt on -I'll drop out or maybe sue BASC ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 .also as I read it basc say this is not a legal requirment but I have read nowhere that they are acting on it. BASC have asked any members who are faced with this request to inform them immediately. I note you still haven't explained how a GP's letter would have prevented any of the shooting sprees in the past or how it would prevent any in the future. It has nothing to do with public safety (the application form already requires your GP's contact consent for this reason) but everything to do with recovering some of their lost costs. I resent paying for their inadequacies. All it takes is for each of us to say that our shooting organisation has advised us not to comply as it is not a requirement by law nor inclusion in the act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 I have a long way to my next renewal but I shall be refusing to pay for medical 'certfication', I have no problem if my doctor deems me unfit, to tell the police immediately but £100 for a renewal isnt on -I'll drop out or maybe sue BASC ! so if there is a change in the law you will sue basc.interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 BASC have asked any members who are faced with this request to inform them immediately. I note you still haven't explained how a GP's letter would have prevented any of the shooting sprees in the past or how it would prevent any in the future. It has nothing to do with public safety (the application form already requires your GP's contact consent for this reason) but everything to do with recovering some of their lost costs. I resent paying for their inadequacies. All it takes is for each of us to say that our shooting organisation has advised us not to comply as it is not a requirement by law nor inclusion in the act. if you read back at no time was it ever spoke about or hinted that the doctors report would stop anything.the doctors opinion is sought for that time in the same way as your friend who signs to say you are all good.i will explain one last time my own opinion is tha I and I only speak for myself would if it speeded my renewal I would pay for and supply a gp's letter.another reason for me wanting my sgc done quickly is I travel a lot with my guns and spend a lot of time away from home shooting so a current certificate is preferable to me.does that make it any clearer for you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 BASC have asked any members who are faced with this request to inform them immediately. I note you still haven't explained how a GP's letter would have prevented any of the shooting sprees in the past or how it would prevent any in the future. It has nothing to do with public safety (the application form already requires your GP's contact consent for this reason) but everything to do with recovering some of their lost costs. I resent paying for their inadequacies. All it takes is for each of us to say that our shooting organisation has advised us not to comply as it is not a requirement by law nor inclusion in the act. You have hit the nail on the head, it's all about costs. Whilst the police have to pay the GP bill they will only request a medical report when necessary. However, with the applicant picking up the bill it will become the norm for a report to be required for each and every application and renewal, perhaps even variations in time to come and then one every year. BASC really needs to stop this in its tracks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 . BASC really needs to stop this in its tracks now. yes that is what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) can any one stop it,it seems that if the police want any thing we will give it,or it becomes very hard for us,now the yanks would stand for it at all.thats why them get all the good guns. Edited November 19, 2013 by mossy835 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 can any one stop it,it seems that if the police want any thing we will give it,or it becomes very hard for us,now the yanks would stand for it at all.thats why them get all the good guns. the americans support their organisations unlike here I would say that only around 15% of gun owners in this country belong to either basc or cpsa yet 100% moan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyshot Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 (edited) You have hit the nail on the head, it's all about costs. Whilst the police have to pay the GP bill they will only request a medical report when necessary. However, with the applicant picking up the bill it will become the norm for a report to be required for each and every application and renewal, perhaps even variations in time to come and then one every year. BASC really needs to stop this in its tracks now. Im going through the process of renewal (fac) now and Durham want a medical report (I pay) from what I have heard from my flo is its optional to take part or not. Im not taking part as my doctor wouldnt do it. The police contacted them to try and change there mind but my doctor stated the needed to speak to the GMC before thet would commit to anything. So far no word from my doctor and my renewal is going through ok so far. Im not a member of basc so I wont comment again on how bad I think there work is on this matter. £25 is what my doctor will charge if he gets the go ahead from the GMC which I doubt will be any time soon. Edited November 19, 2013 by Luckyshot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 so if there is a change in the law you will sue basc.interesting It would be based on a failure to properly represent members views despite knowing what those views were and failing to fully canvas membership views on the issue to confirm a mandate. The only way perhaps to raise concern over the issue and get it reconsidered ? Also a dose of extreme frustration that even this gaping chasm in the abuse of the law cannot be nailed firmly shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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