No5 steel shot

[wymberley]

 

 

anser. most if not all cartridge manufactureres state a MAX of half choke using steel.

 

teal are a small duck and can be shot with 28 no 7s in steel out to forty yds why do you feel the need to use magnums for small duck.

As has been realised the No 4s which you have been comparing with No 6 lead are in fact probably English No 3s being of Italian origin. So, one has to ask, what is the actual size of these magical No7s?

[anser2]

I should state i used to hate steel for wildfowling years ago. It failed to produce clean kills at any range much over 30 yards and I would not use steel for geese , but today modern steel shells and afterchokes have made a huge difference to the performance with steel to the extent that I no longer miss lead. To many shooters today fail to realise that steel is a very difference beast to lead , needing faster loads , much larger shot sizes and for long range work the use of after chokes to get the max performance from it. And when i say max performance I mean being able to get clean kills at 50 yards. Forget about the fluky 60 yard shots that some could on occasion bring off with lead . Aim for a load when the shell choke combination produces good tight patterns that start to fail as the shot speed falls. For a heavy load of no 2 with a full choke thats 50 yards.

 

Tigme. The rule on half choke applys to guns with a fitted choke in the barrel walls. I use afterchokes ( screw in ) that is specialy made for steel ( HLS Undertaker turkey choke ) with a constriction of .700 ( about full choke ). They are also regulated to produce good patterns for certain shot sizes. The patern in no 3 is ok ( 60% at 40 yards ) , but the pattern in no 2 is a lot better ( 70% at 50 yards ) as that particular choke is made for that shot size. I have another Undertaker choke that is meant for BBB and with that size of shot it produces better patterns at 50 yards with BBB than it does with no 1 or smaller shot. My duck are mainly shot on the foreshore at a range of 40+ yards and i find 1 1\4 oz load of no 3 does a very good job on teal and medium size duck. I have found no 3 a good alround fowling load , well able to kill medium duck and large enough for close mallard and geese.

 

Kent , there are not a lot of pellets in no 2 ( Remies , so they are US size at 1550 fps) so the heavy load of a 3.5 inch 1 3\8 oz or 1 9\16 oz shell makes a hell of a difference to the pattern at a 50 yard mallard. When coupled with a full after choke the effect in range and clean killing powder is amazing when compared with the more normal 1\2 choke that many use. I have been using this combnation for several years and have yet to have a winged mallard. All have been stone dead or missed at about a 50.50 ratio. This is not a load for all round duck shooting , but if you are shooting a mallard flightline where you know most the chances are going to be on the fringe of range it works very well. I should add that i use factory loads and some may be able to get as good performance a out of their homeloads.

Edited November 7, 2013 by anser2

[kent]

I should state i used to hate steel for wildfowling years ago. It failed to produce clean kills at any range much over 30 yards and I would not use steel for geese , but today modern steel shells and afterchokes have made a huge difference to the performance with steel to the extent that I no longer miss lead. To many shooters today fail to realise that steel is a very difference beast to lead , needing faster loads , much larger shot sizes and for long range work the use of after chokes to get the max performance from it. And when i say max performance I mean being able to get clean kills at 50 yards. Forget about the fluky 60 yard shots that some could on occasion bring off with lead . Aim for a load when the shell choke combination produces good tight patterns that start to fail as the shot speed falls. For a heavy load of no 2 with a full choke thats 50 yards.

 

Tigme. The rule on half choke applys to guns with a fitted choke in the barrel walls. I use afterchokes ( screw in ) that is specialy made for steel ( HLS Undertaker turkey choke ) with a constriction of .700 ( about full choke ). They are also regulated to produce good patterns for certain shot sizes. The patern in no 3 is ok ( 60% at 40 yards ) , but the pattern in no 2 is a lot better ( 70% at 50 yards ) as that particular choke is made for that shot size. I have another Undertaker choke that is meant for BBB and with that size of shot it produces better patterns at 50 yards with BBB than it does with no 1 or smaller shot. My duck are mainly shot on the foreshore at a range of 40+ yards and i find 1 1\4 oz load of no 3 does a very good job on teal and medium size duck. I have found no 3 a good alround fowling load , well able to kill medium duck and large enough for close mallard and geese.

 

Kent , there are not a lot of pellets in no 2 ( Remies , so they are US size at 1550 fps) so the heavy load of a 3.5 inch 1 3\8 oz or 1 9\16 oz shell makes a hell of a difference to the pattern at a 50 yard mallard. When coupled with a full after choke the effect in range and clean killing powder is amazing when compared with the more normal 1\2 choke that many use. I have been using this combnation for several years and have yet to have a winged mallard. All have been stone dead or missed at about a 50.50 ratio. This is not a load for all round duck shooting , but if you are shooting a mallard flightline where you know most the chances are going to be on the fringe of range it works very well. I should add that i use factory loads and some may be able to get as good performance a out of their homeloads.

 

Sorry that sounded ok right up until you said you have never winged a mallard and continue with a 50/50 ratio. Nothing wrong with a 50% ratio other than it blew the credibility of what you posted about no winged mallard. The Remington 3" is just under 1450 fps, contains a large polymer buffer beads and patterns great at 50 yds (1 1/4 oz) through a Kicks modified- however energy even at this speed is insufficient at this range to get 100% kills, Large duck often come down wounded if you stretch things to 50 shooting a gamebore 3 1/2" wont help coz it aint the pattern failing and I haven seen them in a no.2 only a 3 which means less energy or a No.1 which aint to different on pellet count to make any matter

[wymberley]

 

Sorry that sounded ok right up until you said you have never winged a mallard and continue with a 50/50 ratio. Nothing wrong with a 50% ratio other than it blew the credibility of what you posted about no winged mallard. The Remington 3" is just under 1450 fps, contains a large polymer buffer beads and patterns great at 50 yds (1 1/4 oz) through a Kicks modified- however energy even at this speed is insufficient at this range to get 100% kills, Large duck often come down wounded if you stretch things to 50 shooting a gamebore 3 1/2" wont help coz it aint the pattern failing and I haven seen them in a no.2 only a 3 which means less energy or a No.1 which aint to different on pellet count to make any matter

Taken in context, could I just point out that in your final line, " I haven seen" should have been followed by, ''em'.

[kent]

Taken in context, could I just point out that in your final line, " I haven seen" should have been followed by, ''em'.

 

What post did you mean to quote then?

[anser2]

Kent I stand by what i have said that using remmis 3.5 inch no 2 for flighting mallard I have never had a winged bird. they are dead or missed. I cant say the same with the 1 1\4 oz mammoths, but I would mainly use them for closer birds though they are a good shell indeed my stock in trade wildfowling shell. The Undertaker choke produces very tight patterns and no 2 is a heafty pellet for duck so the combination of the two kills or misses . I have patterned shells with a coiuple of mates who also use after chokes , but the HLS Undertaker produced much tioghter patterns that the other afterchokes used , a Terror choke and cant remember what the other was called. But the HLS Undertaker was .50 tighter than the other two. The HLS choke not for all round fowling , but a specialist choke for long range mallard and geese. My Remmingtons are 1550 fps or at least thats what it says on the box. I have to take their word for it as I have no means of testing speed.

[kent]

Kent I stand by what i have said that using remmis 3.5 inch no 2 for flighting mallard I have never had a winged bird. they are dead or missed. I cant say the same with the 1 1\4 oz mammoths, but I would mainly use them for closer birds though they are a good shell indeed my stock in trade wildfowling shell. The Undertaker choke produces very tight patterns and no 2 is a heafty pellet for duck so the combination of the two kills or misses . I have patterned shells with a coiuple of mates who also use after chokes , but the HLS Undertaker produced much tioghter patterns that the other afterchokes used , a Terror choke and cant remember what the other was called. But the HLS Undertaker was .50 tighter than the other two. The HLS choke not for all round fowling , but a specialist choke for long range mallard and geese. My Remmingtons are 1550 fps or at least thats what it says on the box. I have to take their word for it as I have no means of testing speed.

 

Sorry I was quoting the 3" 12ga no. 2 I use in Remington Nitro steel. 12 ga 3 1/2 nitro steel is over rated on speed I think as its the same speed as the 10ga stuff but there is a massive difference in energy at 50 yds like for like. Your killed or clean miss has to been seen as what it is fantasy, it cannot be that your misses are all clean misses. If you shoot clays do they turn to dust and you never knock a chip off or break one into three or four bits ? With a 50/50 ratio at 50yds I am very envious because I cannot do that but then again I can't guarantee clean misses or clean kills, never seen anyone who has even with a rifle at stationary target were a 50/50 ratio could be considered appallingly bad.

[wildfowler.250]

Clean kill or miss? Hmm...

 

Shot size 7's in steel isn't appropriate for teal in my opinion. Plus what I've found is with cheaper loads,(eg for pigeons) is that you end up needing a follow up shot more often than normal so it doesn't seem financially or ethically justifiable

[tignme]

Clean kill or miss? Hmm...

 

Shot size 7's in steel isn't appropriate for teal in my opinion. Plus what I've found is with cheaper loads,(eg for pigeons) is that you end up needing a follow up shot more often than normal so it doesn't seem financially or ethically justifiable

 

 

Everyone is entitled to there own but ive just come in from a local teal pond approximately 70 yds square shooting 28 gram no 7s in steel and have 5 birds to show for my efforts. Shouted off and shot as they siloette in the moon.

 

I shoot loads of pigeons with the same loads not because of the price (£4.10 per 25) but because they do the buisness. Over the yrs ive shot trap loads for woodies and when using lead in the old days i used Hull Sovereign ( top of range price wise) so the cost does not come into it. A friend shoots the most expensive shell around but does not shoot any more pigeons than me.

[tignme]

 

more common than you think. the fact that someone can go `fowling for £2.50 a box of shells makes it extremely attractive.

 

i`ve even heard that 18grams of #7 is the new "goose" shell. but i cant get my head around that, especially at the slow speeds.

 

 

Where o where are you getting the £100.00 per thousand shells.

 

Some of you guys are into too much scientific BS about shotgun cartridges or is it a case of my ole grandaddy says its right so it must be.

[Guest cookoff013]

 

 

Where o where are you getting the £100.00 per thousand shells.

 

Some of you guys are into too much scientific BS about shotgun cartridges or is it a case of my ole grandaddy says its right so it must be.

 

when i first started using steel shells they were £88 per 1000 shells. and i did use 1000 shells in a single day. i bought a benelli pump and quickly ran in 1000 shells at clays. i recall thay were gamebore 7.5 1oz sporting steel.

 

this "scientific" BS is not entirely BS as you so say.

without being too full of myself, most homeloaders only want to try and exceed some parts of the CIP regulations. theys regulations that are choking (excuse the pun) the cartidge industry. in the old days steel was poor and unregulated because it was so poor. then the cip decided to keep its performance below par.

 

this so called BS is also responsable for the greatest shells ever manufactured, and they aint factory.

 

this so called BS is also the development from an industry that has millions poured into it from over the pond.

 

this so called BS is the same BS that is pushing the ammunitions market further, take pure tungsten T-18, #5 tungsten will penetrate steel at 100yards ! at 1500fps at muzzel.! i bet your "ole grandaddy, has never heard of tungsten, or 1500fps, or CIP regulations " just because you havent seen heard or been told. doesnt mean it aint in existence.

 

the other fact, that a few people can shoot teal with 7.5s and take game is not lost. but i can say, there chances will increase with adequate cartridges.

 

i myself have developed steel, and lead shells, it takes alot of money.

 

this BS we chat over here is to set the facts straight. and get the best shells ever.

i`ve not just hours ago been told i cant buy steel BB shells because the steel shot is "too bouncy" - and you say we have too much science BS?

[motty]

 

 

Where o where are you getting the £100.00 per thousand shells.

 

Some of you guys are into too much scientific BS about shotgun cartridges or is it a case of my ole grandaddy says its right so it must be.

I must admit I get fed up with that, too. I hear so many people saying you shouldn't use this or that shotsize. Their argument then is that their Grandad was a gamekeeper for 40 years and that somehow means he is an authority on the subject.

I, like yourself, see what works for me and stick by it. I have shot thousands of pigeons with 'clay' cartridges, even though many people who've shot far less pigeons think it's wrong. I would quite happily use a size 7 steel for teal at decent range. It's more difficult to hit a teal than it is to kill one.

[motty]

 

when i first started using steel shells they were £88 per 1000 shells. and i did use 1000 shells in a single day. i bought a benelli pump and quickly ran in 1000 shells at clays. i recall thay were gamebore 7.5 1oz sporting steel.

 

this "scientific" BS is not entirely BS as you so say.

without being too full of myself, most homeloaders only want to try and exceed some parts of the CIP regulations. theys regulations that are choking (excuse the pun) the cartidge industry. in the old days steel was poor and unregulated because it was so poor. then the cip decided to keep its performance below par.

 

this so called BS is also responsable for the greatest shells ever manufactured, and they aint factory.

 

this so called BS is also the development from an industry that has millions poured into it from over the pond.

 

this so called BS is the same BS that is pushing the ammunitions market further, take pure tungsten T-18, #5 tungsten will penetrate steel at 100yards ! at 1500fps at muzzel.! i bet your "ole grandaddy, has never heard of tungsten, or 1500fps, or CIP regulations " just because you havent seen heard or been told. doesnt mean it aint in existence.

 

the other fact, that a few people can shoot teal with 7.5s and take game is not lost. but i can say, there chances will increase with adequate cartridges.

 

i myself have developed steel, and lead shells, it takes alot of money.

 

this BS we chat over here is to set the facts straight. and get the best shells ever.

i`ve not just hours ago been told i cant buy steel BB shells because the steel shot is "too bouncy" - and you say we have too much science BS?

I take it this no.5 tungsten is 18gm/cc. How thick a piece of steel can it penetrate at 100 yards?

Who said you can't buy steel BB shells?

Edited November 9, 2013 by motty

[wymberley]

I must admit I get fed up with that, too. I hear so many people saying you shouldn't use this or that shotsize. Their argument then is that their Grandad was a gamekeeper for 40 years and that somehow means he is an authority on the subject.

I, like yourself, see what works for me and stick by it. I have shot thousands of pigeons with 'clay' cartridges, even though many people who've shot far less pigeons think it's wrong. I would quite happily use a size 7 steel for teal at decent range. It's more difficult to hit a teal than it is to kill one.

If the experience gained in 40 years as a gamekeeper who will have probably shot some stuff in that time is of no consequence, then how come shooting a few pigeon in about half that time span makes anyone else an expert? On those grounds your post is nonsensical as what follows is tainted by that flawed comparison which is a shame as you could well have a point.

[andrewluke]

I must admit I get fed up with that, too. I hear so many people saying you shouldn't use this or that shotsize. Their argument then is that their Grandad was a gamekeeper for 40 years and that somehow means he is an authority on the subject.

I, like yourself, see what works for me and stick by it. I have shot thousands of pigeons with 'clay' cartridges, even though many people who've shot far less pigeons think it's wrong. I would quite happily use a size 7 steel for teal at decent range. It's more difficult to hit a teal than it is to kill one.

 

 

show me a manufacturer that is confident to advertise size 7 steel as a game load,

 

 

andrew

[wildfowler.250]

If the experience gained in 40 years as a gamekeeper who will have probably shot some stuff in that time is of no consequence, then how come shooting a few pigeon in about half that time span makes anyone else an expert? On those grounds your post is nonsensical as what follows is tainted by that flawed comparison which is a shame as you could well have a point.

Fair point

[wymberley]

 

 

Everyone is entitled to there own but ive just come in from a local teal pond approximately 70 yds square shooting 28 gram no 7s in steel and have 5 birds to show for my efforts. Shouted off and shot as they siloette in the moon.

 

I shoot loads of pigeons with the same loads not because of the price (£4.10 per 25) but because they do the buisness. Over the yrs ive shot trap loads for woodies and when using lead in the old days i used Hull Sovereign ( top of range price wise) so the cost does not come into it. A friend shoots the most expensive shell around but does not shoot any more pigeons than me.

It would indeed appear from their web-site that Mirage are quite 'Clever' in as much as except for their lightest steel 12 bore load which they also do in No 6 shot, from all of their other steel game cartridges the smallest they do is No 5. From the packaging that is aimed at the English speaking market it would appear, though, that they have maintained the Italian shot sizes. They don't seem to specify what the sizes are, but anything smaller than No 6 is reserved for clays. On the 71/2 shot cartridge they also give the size in mms - 2.4 (our No 7) so perhaps you could just have a look and see what the No 7s that you are using are actually sized at should they be similarly marked.

[Guest cookoff013]

I take it this no.5 tungsten is 18gm/cc. How thick a piece of steel can it penetrate at 100 yards?

Who said you can't buy steel BB shells?

 

2-3mm steel. sheet. i`ve also heard that they are now shooting "00" T18 buckshot loads out of shotguns and breaking steel girders. the guys statesside think it may be adequate for armour plated deer.

 

- was in a gunshop yesterday, asked for some steel shells. i quite like chatting to shopkeepers to see what bull they shovel to sell cartridges.... big steel pellets being too bouncy in the barrel is a new one on me.

 

i like having a natter about cartridges and stuff. i also like to ask alot of questions.....

[Floating Chamber]

Where o where are you getting the £100.00 per thousand shells.

 

Some of you guys are into too much scientific BS about shotgun cartridges or is it a case of my ole grandaddy says its right so it must be.

£100 or even less, is a realistic figure, if you know where to look.

[Guest cookoff013]

£100 or even less, is a realistic figure, if you know where to look.

 

most of us have to look in the past. but there are bargins out there.

[motty]

If the experience gained in 40 years as a gamekeeper who will have probably shot some stuff in that time is of no consequence, then how come shooting a few pigeon in about half that time span makes anyone else an expert? On those grounds your post is nonsensical as what follows is tainted by that flawed comparison which is a shame as you could well have a point.

Trouble is, I am not claiming to be an expert, all I do is take in what my eyes tell me. Just because someone is a gamekeeper, doesn't mean they shoot much. I knew a gamekeeper who didn't even own a shotgun. My point is that just because someone had the title of gamekeeper, doesn't mean they are an authority on shotsizes. I distinctly remember a post on this forum from someone last year. The poster's gamekeeper granddad/dad said that you must use 32gm 5/6 for pigeon - he should know, he was a gamekeeper for years.

[motty]

 

 

show me a manufacturer that is confident to advertise size 7 steel as a game load,

 

 

andrew

To be honest, i'm not sure you'd find one. However, I don't recall seeing any clay loads being advertised as pigeon/game loads, and that's what I mostly use on pigeons. Don't believe they are any good on pigeons? Watch any of my pigeon shooting videos that I've posted and make up your own mind.

[anser2]

I doubt if many gamekeepers have much experiance with steel and if they do it woud be mainly shooting at close birds over flight ponds.I have a lot of time for a gamekeepers knowledge on the birds or shoot management , but the balistics of steel - no. Ask yourself who is the main user of steel and who is likely to experiment with new loads and various shot sizes - wiildfowlers and the steel homeloaders.

 

We ( wildfowlers ) use steel and know what works in the field and the effects of shot size , shot speed and choke.

[Guest cookoff013]

I doubt if many gamekeepers have much experiance with steel and if they do it woud be mainly shooting at close birds over flight ponds.I have a lot of time for a gamekeepers knowledge on the birds or shoot management , but the balistics of steel - no. Ask yourself who is the main user of steel and who is likely to experiment with new loads and various shot sizes - wiildfowlers and the steel homeloaders.

 

We ( wildfowlers ) use steel and know what works in the field and the effects of shot size , shot speed and choke.

 

+1

i think the stigmata with steel is that it was passed as nontoxic with noresistance. whereas bismuth and tungsten had to be tested. it was one of the first types to be passed as nontoxic and was part of the phase in schemes where steel had to be used. bismuth shells were not available.

 

as with all different types of shot, i went to bismuth and regretted it. steel shot is so much better performning. i think the big problem is everyday people like club shooters or people who really dont care what cartridges they use just assume steel is like lead because the shotsize grading.. one person i know went goose shooting with 7steel, because he went up 2 shotsizes. they dont care for the adequesy of shells, they just want something to go bang.

 

there is so much rubbish spouted over steel, with regards to safety, use, suitability, etc. the list goes on. and after you advise these people who do not understand. they still bith and moan.

 

some guys still extremely upset about having to use magnum steel shells., to the point of never ever using the magnum shells such as 3" or 3.5". and what guns do they have? 3.5" MAXUS.!

[tignme]

wymberly, im 65 yrs young n been shooting pigeons for 50 of those with an average of 1500 per yr. ten yrs of shooting steel trap loads 28 grams no 7s and my averages have not changed. No im not an expert im still on the great big learning curve that is shooting and learning the ways of the wily woodie.

 

 

Anderrewluke, I did not say steel game load i said trap load. the 28 gram trap load pellet in steel is the same size as no 6 in lead,

 

Cookoffyou said .Quote Went to bismuth regretted it. Steel shot is so much BETTER performing.

 

So whats wrong with shooting 28 gram steel trap loads at small game birds, teal, pigeon,quail and partridges.

 

You all protest about the likes of me shooting CHEAP cartridges at pigeons but you want me to source them at under £100.00.

 

Tight lines all you Bs hiters

Edited November 10, 2013 by tignme