No5 steel shot

[wymberley]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

all my birds are sold at a premimum to falconers.

 

 

Clever Mirage 28 gram no 7s in steel. Trade price so not telling.

I had a sneaky feeling the falconers bit was coming because of the regular weekly supply so the use of steel makes sense. As you've just got some more and the Clever Mirage web-site shows the cartons having both the numerical shot size and the pellet diameter in mms, what is the diameter of your No 7 shot?

[tignme]

 

They have an interesting mix of non-toxic shells.

 

http://www.clevervr.com/catalog/no-toxic

 

The clever website says the UK importer is in - Dalry, Ayrshire

 

http://www.continentalshooting.co.uk/home/contact.aspx

 

They don't seem to sell 28g #7's in steel though:

 

http://www.continentalshooting.co.uk/shop/supplies/cartridges.aspx

 

The 3.5" supermagnum steels are not cheap either at a quid a pop.

 

 

Aris oh ye of little faith, give them a bell or email. ask for Tom or jim. query the steel 28 gram no 7s. you can even tell them barry the Ulsterman said to call. i buy these by the tens of thousand.the reason i dont publish my trade price is my punters would see them.

[aris]

 

Aris oh ye of little faith, give them a bell or email. ask for Tom or jim. query the steel 28 gram no 7s. you can even tell them barry the Ulsterman said to call. i buy these by the tens of thousand.the reason i dont publish my trade price is my punters would see them.

 

Wasn't a dig tigme - I have no doubt in what you have said. I investigated because you did such a good sales job, that i'd love to try them on clays! Who knows, they may well be the only thing available in the not-so-distant future.

 

From what I can see though - they are only available in Ayshire - and carriage is a bit on the expensive side.

[wymberley]

 

Wasn't a dig tigme - I have no doubt in what you have said. I investigated because you did such a good sales job, that i'd love to try them on clays! Who knows, they may well be the only thing available in the not-so-distant future.

 

From what I can see though - they are only available in Ayshire - and carriage is a bit on the expensive side.

To be fair the 71/2s that are advertised are actually English No 7s - 2.4mm. If some marked as 7s have been acquired I was figuring that they would actually be No 6s English but for some reason tignme doesn't want to give the size having been asked several times.

[motty]

Did no-one see the article in the Shooting Times about 2-3 years ago? Rich G from this forum featured in the article. He was using Gamebore 7.5 steel and was killing pigeons at 35 yards no problem. I'm sure he was at least a AA class clay shot.

I have also killed pigeons over decoys with the same load. That's why I questioned the fact that someone said a no.5 steel wouldn't kill a squirrel.

[tignme]

 

 

Why does the size make a difference as long as they kill the intended quarry.

 

For your info. In frontn of me disected a 32 gram classic game mirage no 6 in lead 2.5mm

 

Ditto a 28 gram trap load in no 7 steel 2.5mm

 

Both measured with my reloading calipers.

 

 

aris. check out with them. they are the main distibuter in UK. i know they supply to N I/ R O I and englandshire.

[Rimfireboy]

Did no-one see the article in the Shooting Times about 2-3 years ago? Rich G from this forum featured in the article. He was using Gamebore 7.5 steel and was killing pigeons at 35 yards no problem. I'm sure he was at least a AA class clay shot.

I have also killed pigeons over decoys with the same load. That's why I questioned the fact that someone said a no.5 steel wouldn't kill a squirrel.

Never said no5 steel wouldn't kill a squirrel. I hit one twice and it still ran on. Maybe it's dead, maybe it isn't. Anyway, squirrels are a lot tougher to kill than pigeons. I won't be using steel 5's for my shooting anymore.

[wymberley]

 

 

cookie boy if the trap load in steel is no good then the lead equivilent must be ok as loads on here use 28 gram 7.5s to great success. But then lead is better.

 

What i want to know is which part of steel 28 gram shells are killing pigeons out to max 40 yds is it you n wymberly DONT understand.

 

No the cost does not come into it as i pest control on 24 different permissions the most of whom pay the expenses.

As far as I can recall, I have never come across anyone who thinks that going up two shot sizes when using steel in the place of lead is excessive until now. Most people I've come across think that the correct adjustment is in excess of that.

 

Let's turn the debate on its head.

 

The British Army is having trouble during navigation exercises in the UK because 150 years of depositing steel shotgun pellets throughout the country is affecting the standard issue compass. Consequently, the use of steel pellets is to cease immediately and be replaced by lead. Because of the higher density of the latter material, it is recommended that 2 shot sizes smaller is used. Therefore, shot size 9 is deemed satisfactory for wood pigeon, teal and equivalent sized birds and similarly No 6 for duck and No 4 for geese at all sporting ranges.

 

Because the previous paragraph does not make sense is the reason that I don't understand how No7 steel can humanely dispatch pigeon at 40 yards. The only alternative is that for the period of those 150 years, some six generations of sportsmen have been under estimating the effectiveness of lead. As an ex serviceman who has spent many years to-ing and fro-ing in and out of the UK I have never had a dog as it would have spent most of its life in quarantine. Consequently, in my experience if while decoying you have to rely on dogs to retrieve runners you've either got too few dogs or too many runners.

[wymberley]

Why does the size make a difference as long as they kill the intended quarry.

 

For your info. In frontn of me disected a 32 gram classic game mirage no 6 in lead 2.5mm

 

Ditto a 28 gram trap load in no 7 steel 2.5mm

 

Both measured with my reloading calipers.

 

 

aris. check out with them. they are the main distibuter in UK. i know they supply to N I/ R O I and englandshire.

Well, if nothing else they're consistent. Buy No 6s and you get 61/2s. Buy No 7s and you also get 61/2s. Must be said though that the lead No 6s would make a good pigeon load.

Edited November 13, 2013 by wymberley

[tignme]

Wymberly, you are twisting it around arnt you. The use of trained retreivers is to help in the quick dispatch of the wounded and they save my old legs. The lead n steel shot size, no comment eh. You cannot take away the fact that in the right hands the cartridge is doing the job.

 

I have never said lead is no good as a matter of fact i would rather use it but the market dictates its use.

 

Good night all

 

Wheres cookie,fallen asleep.

Edited November 12, 2013 by tignme

[wymberley]

Wymberly, you are twisting it around arnt you. The use of trained retreivers is to help in the quick dispatch of the wounded and they save my old legs. The lead n steel shot size, no comment eh. You cannot take away the fact that in the right hands the cartridge is doing the job.

 

I have never said lead is no good as a matter of fact i would rather use it but the market dictates its use.

 

Good night all

 

Wheres cookie,fallen asleep.

Just how many runners do you get from 28.5 downed birds to warrant the dogs? I'm coming up to 70 and still manage to pick my own and would give myself a good talking to if I had, say, 3 wounded from the 28. I'm not bad but not a brilliant shot and there's no harm in willy waving - if you've got it, flaunt it - so if it's not you it can only be the cartridge.

[motty]

Never said no5 steel wouldn't kill a squirrel. I hit one twice and it still ran on. Maybe it's dead, maybe it isn't. Anyway, squirrels are a lot tougher to kill than pigeons. I won't be using steel 5's for my shooting anymore.

As I said before, i'm sure if it was hit correctly with a dense pattern, then it will do the job. An odd pellet in the guts or legs obviously isn't going to kill.

[tignme]

Wymberly, im gonna concede.YOU N COOKIE ARE RIGHT> But then so am I. Tight lines all n if you ever get up to Sunny Ayrshire PM me and i will take you out decoying all expenses paid. see us old timers must stick together.

 

Baz.

 

OBTW wymberly when youre shooting standing crops do you plough through n trample said crop.All decoyers should have at least one good retreiver you owe it to your quarry n of course the farmer.

Edited November 13, 2013 by tignme

[Guest cookoff013]

Wymberly, im gonna concede.YOU N COOKIE ARE RIGHT> But then so am I. Tight lines all n if you ever get up to Sunny Ayrshire PM me and i will take you out decoying all expenses paid. see us old timers must stick together.

 

Baz.

 

OBTW wymberly when youre shooting standing crops do you plough through n trample said crop.All decoyers should have at least one good retreiver you owe it to your quarry n of course the farmer.

baz,

as i`ve stated the thing that doesnt sit right is #7 steel and 40yards. now under 40 yards is a different matter. its just that part of the argument. infact i made and proofed a cartridge just for using with decoyed pigeon in mind(for falconers), to be economical and effective. it ended up 24gram #5 at ~1500fps mv (a biscuit under). #5 steel to be just effective enough to 40 yards. i used 40 yards as a maximum distance for the shot to get there and do the damage. but my load was always meant to be an uncompromising decoy load.

 

i dont think i ever stated that killing birds cant be done at 40 yards with #7, but i stated there are better loads. i clearly state you`ll have more runners at 40 / 40+ yards with #7 steel shot. even ramping it to 1500fps and more only gains 0.1ftlb at that distance.

 

now i cant disregard your experiences with steel shot. they are obviously different than mine.

 

if your 40 yarders are pricked, then that isnt the cartridge for that. you`re hitting them, you`ve done your bit.

 

the cartridge manufacturers negate to load 1oz #6 loads cheaply because it affects there premium game loads.

 

if the 1oz loads were available cheeper in a 6 or 5 steel, i bet your shooting experience with steel will be completely different at those ranges.

[wymberley]

Wymberly, im gonna concede.YOU N COOKIE ARE RIGHT> But then so am I. Tight lines all n if you ever get up to Sunny Ayrshire PM me and i will take you out decoying all expenses paid. see us old timers must stick together.

 

Baz.

 

OBTW wymberly when youre shooting standing crops do you plough through n trample said crop.All decoyers should have at least one good retreiver you owe it to your quarry n of course the farmer.

Once the towel has gone in you can't start up again 3 minutes later because you're now feeling a bit better.

 

However, because non of us, including the farmer, are not getting any younger and in line with his wishes for the protection of standing crops I am supplied with several programmable bangers to do that leaving me free to sort out the rabbits elsewhere which do more damage to other crops.

[andrewluke]

Wymberly, you are twisting it around arnt you. The use of trained retreivers is to help in the quick dispatch of the wounded and they save my old legs. The lead n steel shot size, no comment eh. You cannot take away the fact that in the right hands the cartridge is doing the job.

 

I have never said lead is no good as a matter of fact i would rather use it but the market dictates its use.

 

Good night all

 

Wheres cookie,fallen asleep.

 

so it is down to cost??

 

andrew

[Rimfireboy]

As I said before, i'm sure if it was hit correctly with a dense pattern, then it will do the job. An odd pellet in the guts or legs obviously isn't going to kill.

Yes well, I hit it hard enough and I've never had that result with lead 5's. I've shot massive numbers of squirrels since I was a lad and I've never hit one twice and knocked it sideways twice to see it recover and run on like that before. It wasn't hit with just the odd pellet in the gut as you suggest. That's why I started this thread. steel 5's don't stop squirrels like lead 5's do at thirty yards. Don't know how many squirrels you've shot at thirty yards with steel 5's but is suggest you don't try it as it would be a cruel practice. It was hit correctly and it didn't do the job, so I'll stick with lead from now on. The penetration of these steel pellets was poor when I tested them afterwards. If they only make tiny dents in a tin can they won't get through a squirrels skin at the same distance. I fully believe that this is the reason that the squirrel wasnt stopped by the first hit. I've skinned many squirrels shot with 6 shot lead and found the pellets just under the skin, and that's at closer than thirty yards range. If that's 6's lead then 5's steel aren't going to manage much penetration at a longer range.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Rimfireboy

[tignme]

P I S H AN D R E W Using steel to suit the demand is not about cost. You are so much up your own you just dont get it,

Edited November 13, 2013 by tignme

[anser2]

This has been a very interesting thread and while dissagreeing with each other to some degree I have little doubt that the main posters know what they are talking about from pratical experiance.

 

A few days ago someone posted "So from reading through this thread I can learn that everyone has there own opinion on what cartridges, shot size, and weight everbody should use. " Which is close to something I have said many times on here " take a dozen fowlers down the pub , ply them with a few drinks and you will get a dozen different answers to what is the best cartridge and load".

 

I have tried most of the non toxic loads from steel no 5 upwards and have already stated what works for me for ducks ( no 3 and 2 steel ) and what has not worked ( no 5 steel ).

 

To some degree part of the problem is that as a whole when we buy a factory loaded shell you often do not know the exact balistics it has. Its possible to buy a American cartridge ( winchester ) , loaded in Italy for the British market so what size is the pellet , American, Italian or English? Of course if you homeload you have a much better insight as to the makeup of a cartridge.

 

I have long lobbied BASC to put pressure on cartridge makers for a standard shot size , speed , pressure ect so at least we know what we are buying. We buy shotgun shells that have the potential to kill us if we get the wrong pressure for our guns and yet in most cases there is no or little information on the shell box. In a modern age when we get the contents of every ingredient and its caliorific value on every tin of beans is it too much to ask the cartridge makers to put the same sort of information on every box of cartridges.

Edited November 13, 2013 by anser2

[Guest cookoff013]

anser,

 

if the ammunition manufacturers cannot decide whether they can or cannot make a cheap 1oz #6 lead load, then they are not going to standardize anything.

 

its hard enough to try and get manufacturers products in gunshops. cartridge manufacturers refuse to be stocked by minor gunshops. express are about the only manufacturer to sell to anyone. the other players dont even want the business. previously i`ve had to use rio, rotweill and some other random makes.

 

i dont think any extra information would inform or influence an everyday shooter. thats what i think.

 

you know and i completely agree that get 100 shooters together and end up with 200 opinions !

what concerns me, is a person gains some MINIMAL information from heresay, or friends or magazine articles, an asosciate of mine had it fixated in his head that he needed 1800fps steel loads. there is no-one that needs 1800fps loads. he actually wants to fire #5 steel at 1800fps. thinking that speed kills. it took alot of time for me to try to find a 1800fps load. but it was something silly like 18grams of steel. not entirely a "fowling load"

 

its not too hard to get mixed up, especally with new reloads and the like.

[wymberley]

This has been a very interesting thread and while dissagreeing with each other to some degree I have little doubt that the main posters know what they are talking about from pratical experiance.

 

A few days ago someone posted "So from reading through this thread I can learn that everyone has there own opinion on what cartridges, shot size, and weight everbody should use. " Which is close to something I have said many times on here " take a dozen fowlers down the pub , ply them with a few drinks and you will get a dozen different answers to what is the best cartridge and load".

 

I have tried most of the non toxic loads from steel no 5 upwards and have already stated what works for me for ducks ( no 3 and 2 steel ) and what has not worked ( no 5 steel ).

 

To some degree part of the problem is that as a whole when we buy a factory loaded shell you often do not know the exact balistics it has. Its possible to buy a American cartridge ( winchester ) , loaded in Italy for the British market so what size is the pellet , American, Italian or English? Of course if you homeload you have a much better insight as to the makeup of a cartridge.

 

I have long lobbied BASC to put pressure on cartridge makers for a standard shot size , speed , pressure ect so at least we know what we are buying. We buy shotgun shells that have the potential to kill us if we get the wrong pressure for our guns and yet in most cases there is no or little information on the shell box. In a modern age when we get the contents of every ingredient and its caliorific value on every tin of beans is it too much to ask the cartridge makers to put the same sort of information on every box of cartridges.

Well said.

 

With regard to the final paragraph, I agree entirely but am forced to acknowledge that cookoff is very probably correct. As a compromise I would be happy to accept just the first phrase. I don't care what unit of measurement is used or what country's size specifications - business sense would say American as that country is probably the biggest consumer - just so long as it is one system and one system only so we know what it is that we're getting - I concede that at the cheaper end (sometimes not so cheap as well) this will not avoid the examples like the measurements that tignme took.

 

Pressure to BASC is as a cracked washer is to a stirrup pump.

[wildfowler.250]

Just to add something. Done a few flights recently having moved onto gamebore 36g 3's for ducks. They've been great,(for a steel shell ). Previously I was using express steel and it was rubbish!

 

Maybe these shells get pushed a little faster? But they're miles better. Really flattens the teal

[wymberley]

Just to add something. Done a few flights recently having moved onto gamebore 36g 3's for ducks. They've been great,(for a steel shell ). Previously I was using express steel and it was rubbish!

 

Maybe these shells get pushed a little faster? But they're miles better. Really flattens the teal

Might just be because they equate to an English No 2 - 3.5mm.

[wildfowler.250]

I have to say the different shot sizes,(as has already mentioned) between American, English and Italian gets confusing!

Edited November 15, 2013 by wildfowler.250

[pavman]

I have not read all the posts, however for steel I have moved to number 1's for duck and BB's if its very windy and shoot 5mm home loads at Geese. I have an on going thing where Goose shooters think 3's in steel in a 3 1/2 cart are good for Geese, they seem oblivious to the fact its still a number 3 shot just more of them..... a good number of 3's at short range in the head may well do the biz over deeks but under a flight line I have lost count the number of times I have seen folk let off at Geese way up there (100 yards) with duck loads in steel...... tossers the lot of them