Easy target to aim at for grouping?

[kent]

I'm having a little trouble seeing what's going on through the scope these days - I guess I'm getting old or something! Maybe it's partly that the cross hairs are a bit too thick on my scope for what I'm trying to do.

 

Anyway, I firmly believe that me and my rifle are more than capable of tiny groups at 100yds but, looking through the scope, I simply can't see well enough to aim in the same place each time - so how can I expect a small group!?

 

Obviously, the sort of detail I'm on about is way more than I'll ever need for a fox or even a rabbit but I'm currently trying to develop a load for the rifle and feel this is seriously hindering the process.

 

Scope's an mtc taipan 6-24x56, I do intend to get something fancier but it'll have to wait until the new year now.

 

Anyone had similar and found a way around it?

 

Try some better glass at a lesser magnification and smaller objective. at 24x mag you are quite likely to get parallax and focus issues. If I was to go for groups at 100yds (which I think is a bit close for Centrefire testing indecently) I should consider 12x about perfect provided it was crystal clear and it wouldn't worry me unduly if it was 6x as all I need is a totally clear sight picture and an aim point I can define. I should also zero to strike off that aim point

[fieldwanderer]

I think I had the mag. Set about 12 or 14x, sadly it'll be a while before I can get a better scope.

 

I think what I was looking for was a target that I can use well with what I've got. Some of the targets that have come up on here might work, all I can do really is try some. The diamonds and crosses for example don't need the very middle of the crosshairs to aim.

[casts_by_fly]

Try this one (attached). I am a high magnification guy, so I prefer to shoot at 24x, even at 100 yards. When I'm shooting for accuracy, I like to be able to see my crosshairs aligned with a vertical and/or horizontal line of some type. I find this target is good when I don't have a high power scope to see fine markings, like when I have my 3-9 on my hornet.

 

thanks

rick

 

[turbo33]

Similar to above. I use all sorts, but you can't beat the ease and simplicity of a piece of A4 with a marker pen midway across the horizontal and midway down the vertical. With a wad of paper and pen in the rucksack, you can just keep knocking them up on site I use a cardboard box and some masking tape to fix them on.

Edited November 11, 2013 by turbo33

[kent]

I think I had the mag. Set about 12 or 14x, sadly it'll be a while before I can get a better scope.

 

I think what I was looking for was a target that I can use well with what I've got. Some of the targets that have come up on here might work, all I can do really is try some. The diamonds and crosses for example don't need the very middle of the crosshairs to aim.

 

Very little beats the std 100yds benchrest target. You can download them from 6mm BR Forum. High mag scopes unless very good often suffer from focus but the bigger issue is Paralax, they struggle to illuminate its effect so you end up shooting in different places unless you have perfect eye alignment (bigger objective worse the issue)

[fieldwanderer]

Thanks again everyone, with any luck the weather'll be kind tomorrow and I'll get to go play (I work lates).

 

Parallax is one of the reasons for the shorter range - obviously I go to lengths to avoid problems but obviously the shorter the range the less effect it'll have.

 

Other times, all I've done is drawn a 1/2" blob or circle and it's been fine but not this time. I don't know why exactly other than I must be trying to be much more precise with the point of aim. Zeroing the HMR for instance, I can hit a 1p coin every time at 100yds but could I put down a 10mm group with the scope mentioned? I don't know, I've never tried to be that precise.

[kent]

Thanks again everyone, with any luck the weather'll be kind tomorrow and I'll get to go play (I work lates).

 

Parallax is one of the reasons for the shorter range - obviously I go to lengths to avoid problems but obviously the shorter the range the less effect it'll have.

 

Other times, all I've done is drawn a 1/2" blob or circle and it's been fine but not this time. I don't know why exactly other than I must be trying to be much more precise with the point of aim. Zeroing the HMR for instance, I can hit a 1p coin every time at 100yds but could I put down a 10mm group with the scope mentioned? I don't know, I've never tried to be that precise.

Now I should like to see the tunnel you are shooting that 1 pence in every time with a hummer, because you need more than a still day to achieve that.

Shoot a 1/2" blob and you build in 1/2 moa of potential aim error if you cannot see the sight picture in correctly centre, what you need is a 1/2" circle you can split into perfect quarters

[Bewsher500]

with a 6-24 you should have now issues seeing a target at any magnification

the reticule on Taipans is a hairs breadth compared to a No.4 or No.4A in 6x!!

 

if you need a constant aim point, use targets with vertical horizontal spacing to allow you to fill the gaps with the reticule. even if the reticule covers the centre spot you still know you are constant

 

http://magnoliarpc.com/targets/target1/cross-1.gif

 

alternatively use the corner of the target to line up with the vertical and horizontal cross hairs

 

seeing the holes is different matter

either get a spotting scope or ignore the individual strike, concentrate on a constant and natural point of aim and review ALL the shots close to when done. this avoids you trying to force the group by adjusting POA

 

as to people failing rifle tests at DSC1.....

not everyone shoots well with an audience!

4 guys failed on the day i did mine, all of them had all the gear.

 

group size bears no relation to the ability to kill deer. cuts both ways

I have seen guys shoot 1/2" groups all day long off a nice firm bench/bonnet/bag/bipod..........and then completely miss a 50yd shot on a live target

 

if a 1/2 MOA ever becomes "an error" to you then you are doing something right!!

[fieldwanderer]

Now I should like to see the tunnel you are shooting that 1 pence in every time with a hummer, because you need more than a still day to achieve that.

 

Why? I used to hit the 1/2mm bull on a 10mtr air rifle target, standing. more than 9 times out of 10. Hitting a penny (what's that, 15mm?) prone, off a bipod and, more recently a sandbag at the butt too shouldn't be too complicated

[kent]

 

Why? I used to hit the 1/2mm bull on a 10mtr air rifle target, standing. more than 9 times out of 10. Hitting a penny (what's that, 15mm?) prone, off a bipod and, more recently a sandbag at the butt too shouldn't be too complicated

 

Because at 10mtrs you were not exposed to the changing climate, air pressure and air currents. Its not all about the trigger squeeze when your shooting a HMR at 100yds. To explain further a 2mph FV wind will move two perfectly aimed shots near 1" apart I have yet to meet anyone who can call wind that good without flags all the way down range, to do a 15mm target ten out of ten times I am not surprised your having trouble as shooting a 1/2 moa group is actually easier than 5 separate hits on 5 15mm targets.

The two disciplines do not compare the skill set is fundamentally different in the skill set required

[masmiffy]

Make your own shoot n see

 

[Andy H]

Try a target with a heavy vertical and horisontal black line in a cross and line your recticle up with the cross.

[fieldwanderer]

Right then, 25 shots, 5 loads and 5 targets later I'm finally getting somewhere.

 

12mph wind, shooting between gusts. All 5 loads were a mere .006" off lands, I'll pick the two best groups and do three shorter loads of each. I.e. .010, .020 and .030 next to see what difference that makes.

 

The first group was about an inch and all four of the others were near (some under, I think) 1/2" - I'm at work now so pictures may well follow tomorrow but thanks for all the help, I'd be pulling my hair out by now if it weren't for you guys.

 

The pennies, perhaps I should have been clearer, obviously it needs the right conditions but I still think you may be underestimating other's abilities.

[Frenchieboy]

Fieldwandered - One thing worth mentioning is to try to relax and enjoy your shooting. If you are too uptight over "extra tight groups" or "pin hole accuracy" you can over concentrate and tense up and not shoot as accurately or comfortably as you might do!

Edited November 13, 2013 by Frenchieboy

[Muddy Funker]

Fieldwandered - One thing worth mentioning is to try to relax and enjoy your shooting. If you are too uptight over "extra tight groups" or "pin hole accuracy" you can over concentrate and tense up and not shoot as accurately or comfortably as you might do!

 

I'd defo agree with this,

 

I've got myself in a right tizz before when I can't put pellets or bullets through the same hole.

 

Sometimes you have to just accept you're not a marine scout sniper and not as good as you think you are haha!!!

 

This is purely me looking at myself, not anyone else here.

[kent]

Right then, 25 shots, 5 loads and 5 targets later I'm finally getting somewhere.

 

12mph wind, shooting between gusts. All 5 loads were a mere .006" off lands, I'll pick the two best groups and do three shorter loads of each. I.e. .010, .020 and .030 next to see what difference that makes.

 

The first group was about an inch and all four of the others were near (some under, I think) 1/2" - I'm at work now so pictures may well follow tomorrow but thanks for all the help, I'd be pulling my hair out by now if it weren't for you guys.

 

The pennies, perhaps I should have been clearer, obviously it needs the right conditions but I still think you may be underestimating other's abilities.

So what gun are you actually shooting here? We have HMR spoke of and 10mtr air rifle and now its now your onto jump distance? Jump makes for negligible difference in a factory gun with hunting bullets, all you are likely to do is get overpressure shooting tight to the lands as the Ogilvie is not consistant enough. Case in point is you can jump 55 grn Noslers a country mile in a .243 win but I have yet to find a rifle that couldn't shoot bug holes with them.

If its a bragging thread I am out because there are other places one can prove your skill, just here to help if its not actually help in achieving your goal you want I am out my friend

[steve_b_wales]

Make your own shoot n see

 

 

That's a good idea. As I mentioned previously, I've also made my own 'shoot 'n see' target back boards, by getting some plain coloured card, covering it with yellow crayon which I 'borrowed' off my grandson's, then covered the crayon with black poster paint. When hit, the paint breaks off, leaving the yellow background. I've tried yellow card, but found that you need card with crayon on it, so that the posted paint only sticks to it lightly.

[bullet boy]

Yep the "Shoot N See" Targets are the best.

[fieldwanderer]

Ignore the 10mtr match rifle, those don't have scopes or reach a hundred yards.

 

The scope in question started out on my HMR and is now on my .22/250 and I was having a little trouble seeing where the crosshairs were accurately enough to produce a small group - which won't help me to find the most accurate load. Hence the question.

 

I mentioned shooting pennies, the point was that although I could do that consistently with the HMR, I'd never tried to put tiny groups down with it and had therefore never had any trouble aiming.

 

So, sorry for the confusion but it's all a bit irrelevant now as some of the targets recommended on here helped and, having looked through the targets I shot again, one in particular really shines with an 8mm group (centre to centre). I started the loads long simply as a starting point, so I can now seat the bullet progressively further from the lands and see if it improves the groups at all.

[Bewsher500]

I was having a little trouble seeing where the crosshairs were accurately enough to produce a small group - .

 

 

not directed at you but within reason you shouldn't need the Hubble telescope to achieve a small group. too many people feel the need for a 30x scope to "see" properly

none of my stalking rifles have anything above an 8x scope with no.4 or Duplex reticules, most of them are 6x42

 

its a target choice issue as you have found out

 

i still zero at 100 and test at 200 and 300 using the 4 segment target I posted on the link with a 6x 4a

at 200yards the centre reticule is bigger than the 1" gap between the segments but you can still use one quarter of the FOV to get a consistent POA

[dadioles]

I am bit confused by this thread and wonder if some of the people answering have read the op properly, or maybe it is me that misread it.

 

It seems that the op cannot clearly see the target as it is obscured by the cross hairs of the scope. That was the issue, not one of seeing the bullet holes.

 

Assuming a target at 100 yards this is best resolved by using a target with quite bold markings and perhaps a thick horizontal and vertical line which extends through the target centre.

 

The "circles" that make up the target should perhaps be 2" dia, 3" dia and 4"dia with a reasonably large solid central dot of about half inch dia. Black on a white background gives maximum contrast.

 

The scope is, I think, in the second plane which means that the cross hairs stay the same size as you zoom in to the target. At 100 yards 24x magnification should work very well and the cross hairs sufficiently fine as long as the target is quite bold.

 

The image of the target needs to be sharply focused of course (as well as the cross hairs). I shoot prone with a bipod at this range. An old sock filled with rice makes an excellent rear stock support, very stable and just a squeeze will raise and lower the stock.

 

Shoot n'see targets are excellent and although they may seem a bit expensive, if you buy a packet of smaller targets (more in a packet) you can stick them in the centre of your "home designed" target and even cut them up to patch over holes for re-use. I struggle to see my bullet holes at 100 yards (hmr) without them.

 

Oh, and one last thing. A 3" group at 100 yards prone off a bipod seems to me to be pretty bad shooting assuming an appropriate rifle. I would expect to do better than that even with a .22lr. With an hmr a 1" group is possible in perfect conditions and 2" not too difficult. Larger and faster calibres should, if anything, be better and not worse.

Standing and unsupported I would struggle to hit anything!!

 

A good rule of thumb, don't shoot rabbits further than you can get every shot in a 1" circle. For foxes a 2" circle and for bigger species a 3" circle.

Edited November 15, 2013 by dadioles

[fieldwanderer]

 

not directed at you but within reason you shouldn't need the Hubble telescope to achieve a small group. too many people feel the need for a 30x scope to "see" properly

none of my stalking rifles have anything above an 8x scope with no.4 or Duplex reticules, most of them are 6x42

 

Agreed, but shooting live quarry doesn't need less than a 1/4" point of aim whereas trying to achieve a 1/4" group does. I need to put the smallest groups possible down so I can see which load works best with my rifle and, when I started this thread, I could only see well enough to put the crosshairs within about 3/4" - I couldn't shoot a group tight enough to do what I was trying to.

 

All sorted now though, thanks chaps