public shooting yes or no?

[kent]

I have been pondering the question for some time. Besides the political back-lash from the anti if ever introduced do you see the very idea (not necessarily the detail) as a good idea?

 

Deer have been badly mis-managed in the uk with numbers steadily rising and the spread of the deer now including urban parks and spare ground, while some land managers sit on their backsides and rake the income from rising lease prices. The expense of this is deer welfare Flora damage and RTAs.

 

People talk of the general licence as if it is a excuse for all year round shooting and pigeon guides have been caught actualy feeding ground and encouraging its use.

 

Inland Canadas create health hazards in our water supply reservoirs over populating areas and leaving poop the size akin to a small dog all over parks etc. not to mention satisfying their hunger for commercial crops and grazing.

 

Rats abound in some areas (especially in among modern rock wall sea defences) While teenage lads stop inside playing on their computer games and growing fat or hanging around on corners experimenting with mind altering drugs. Might allowing them to hunt those rats, grey squirrels and the like with 12 ft lb airguns be a positive move as they beckon towards adulthood?

 

Now while I respect the fact that nobody wants a free for all on their private permissions or the return of the marsh cowboy what about all that un-shot Forestry commission ground, if say one might be allowed into some of the more productive squirrel ground perhaps we might turn back the grey hoard? Rabbits in the dunes and unfenced, un-keepered moorland

 

I am not saying this as I personally lack shooting (though I do feel deer management is slipping into the hands of the most wealthy rather than the most competent these days) , the exact reverse is more true as I decline far more vermin shooting than I ever ask for. But as a general suggestion for the public good under a correctly managed system I can see it could represent a revenue through day / season ticket or tag sales even and keep a lot of our youth out of trouble, not to mention the gain to manufacturing and retail in the UK in terms of kit (both areas which need our support in these times).

 

Could this whole general licence rubbish be stopped and cull rates be instead monitored locally by those issuing the tickets, Should deer control be radically changed (maybe allowing trained bow use in pubic areas?) and stipulating cull figures to landowners (opening the area to trained hunters if not kept to on a tag system).

 

Like I suggest a vote on the principle not the details yes or no? discuss the rest but vote based on your initial gut thoughts

[sonicdmb]

Can of worms time. In principal giving kids the chance at even some of the sporting opportunities I had growing up can only be a good thing. I'm not so sure on how it could be achieved.

Deer management is very compartmentalized and miss matched thing in this country. Could we go to a more American tag system I don't think it could work we don't have the large public land areas they do. Forestry commission land my be different.

I doubt that the fundamental change to the law around sporting rights game firearms etc would ever happen. They will not even look at the hunting act which is a complete farce, what chance is there of getting it right for any of the above.

Better the devil you know as far as the law goes.

[poontang]

Kent,

 

I know you've obviously given this a lot of thought, and have spent a bit of time typing it all out....but I'm not quite sure what you're asking?

 

In principle I would say YES, the more youngsters introduced to the sport the better.

 

However, if it meant targeting the type of youngsters you mention, then I would vote with an emphatic NO.

[Livefast123]

Yes, public shooting rights would be a massive step forward in making certain types of shooting accessible to everyone on public land. I'm not sure how it would be implemented, we struggle with issuing a licence these days.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Livefast123

[CharlieT]

Can someone tell me where these vast tracts of "Public Land" are in the UK ?

[kent]

Can someone tell me where these vast tracts of "Public Land" are in the UK ?

 

Under the control of the FC, local and national park authorities, though I am also suggesting unfenced and un-keepered moorland. One might be surprised how much moorland etc. is actually common land even though it is in use for farming etc.

[kent]

Kent,

 

I know you've obviously given this a lot of thought, and have spent a bit of time typing it all out....but I'm not quite sure what you're asking?

 

In principle I would say YES, the more youngsters introduced to the sport the better.

 

However, if it meant targeting the type of youngsters you mention, then I would vote with an emphatic NO.

 

its not just about the youngsters its really the concept, the FC effectively seized a lot of common land and compulsory purchased other bits. Yet they now charge people to park and effectively use much of it, why not go therefore whole hog and issue deer tags etc.? like I say discuss the issues (I haven't spent so much time on it as you suspect) but vote on the principle you might agree with my chain of thought but think no in general or vice versa. What actually set me off is all this general licence talk to allow killing of flightless moulting geese and wanton killing of the parent birds, leaving their young to perish, was thinking is there not a better way to manage our wildlife

[CharlieT]

 

Under the control of the FC, local and national park authorities, though I am also suggesting unfenced and un-keepered moorland. One might be surprised how much moorland etc. is actually common land even though it is in use for farming etc.

 

You would be surprised how little land is actually owned by the various national parks. Local authorities own very little and the forestry commission, to maximize income already lease shooting on most suitable land. There are also many acres of FC land where they do not actually own the shooting/sporting rights.

 

It must be remembered that, quite correctly, where possible the land actually owned by these bodies is managed for the benefit of the population as a whole and recreational public access is paramount, shooting such land where the public have 24 hour access would be impractical.

 

I am surrounded by unfenced, un-keepered moorland which, like most, is in private ownership. Are you really suggesting that legislation should be enacted to permit anyone who fancies it, to have a walk round with a gun.

[kent]

 

You would be surprised how little land is actually owned by the various national parks. Local authorities own very little and the forestry commission, to maximize income already lease shooting on most suitable land. There are also many acres of FC land where they do not actually own the shooting/sporting rights.

 

It must be remembered that, quite correctly, where possible the land actually owned by these bodies is managed for the benefit of the population as a whole and recreational public access is paramount, shooting such land where the public have 24 hour access would be impractical.

 

I am surrounded by unfenced, un-keepered moorland which, like most, is in private ownership. Are you really suggesting that legislation should be enacted to permit anyone who fancies it, to have a walk round with a gun.

 

What you seem to think un expectable in many countries is the norm. for every bit the shooting rights are reserved another bit exists were it is not. Yes the whole population that includes the shooter the FC locally spend many hundreds of thousand putting cycle tracks in for Kamakazi mountain bikers to the danger and detriment of all other users approx. one air ambulance a fortnight is called here to bike related accidents I believe are you saying that might rise if a few young lads were allowed a go at popping squizzers out the trees with airgun? personally I doubt it

Obviously there are issues and practicalities to address (not least education) I think and actually suggest that Deer are the only thing we should consider imposing the public over the private rights over, even then it might be done only when the owner failed or refused to manage things correctly, it sure beats enforced and expensive knee jerk reactions as we have seen in Scotland as regards enforced culling and the landowner being given the bill.

[demonwolf444]

Large area's of land are not shot over.

 

Govt owned land IMO should be shot over to control invasive species, grey squirrels and such. If it was implemented i would like to see it done so that every three years or so you apply to a relevant authority, no more than three people are picked, all are given a contact number for each other, and sign a contract so they know their boundary, quarry limitations etc, and any other duties they may be required to perform. This way every three years there is the opportunity for someone else to have the shooting, the small number of people with the lease helps avoid accidents. Rules can easily be enforced. If done properly it could be a good thing.

[deershooter]

Can you imagine what it would be like with the Jonny Rambo air gun brigade running all over the place .Some people are not even safe with rim fires .I gave up one permission where the farmer let all and sundry shoot, it was like Roorks Drift withe bullets coming through the hedges where 2 guys used to get dropped off by the wife while she went shopping .No one else knew they were there

 

Deershooter

[kent]

Can you imagine what it would be like with the Jonny Rambo air gun brigade running all over the place .Some people are not even safe with rim fires .I gave up one permission where the farmer let all and sundry shoot, it was like Roorks Drift withe bullets coming through the hedges where 2 guys used to get dropped off by the wife while she went shopping .No one else knew they were there

 

Deershooter

 

In theory the fact that nobody knows they are there should not effect anyone safety (though not knowing the shooters in question I should still be wary ). I also wont take on a regular permission that is frequently shot by another, I have warned a mate about this one as he has a good permission for bunnies but then I bet there are at least half a dozen who also shoot it because he keeps meeting other folk there. This shouldn't be an issue on a ticketed system though as regards liability and I am not suggesting anyone with DC1 to carry a deer rifle around FC land on a sat morn, the details needs sorting. I quite like the outline of demon wolfs idea

[anser2]

I voted no. In theory free access for shooting for all sounds a good idear , but in an overcrowded small countrylike the UK it would not work. Look at countries where open access shooting is allowed that are also well populated such as France or Italy.Outside of reserve areas there is very little to shoot because of the high shootig pressure. I have a shooting friend in western France and he tells me that when a pheasant apears half the local village turns out to try and shoot it. Their shooting tends to be restricted when pulses of migratory birds are passing through and once migration is finnished there is little left to shoot. In my friends area shooting is restricted to 2 days a week because of the lack of game.

 

The other factor is that in the UK most people who shoot are introduced to the sport by friends or relatives and learn the safety and traditions of the sport from them. It a free for all was introduced so too would shooting tests have to be passed or we would unleash into the countryside a band of dangerious shooters who would Know nothing about the sport or quarry and protected birds. Finaly free shooting for all would be the death of game rearing as nobody is going to spend thousands on rearing game for a driven shoot only for any Tom,**** or Harry to shoot the birds first. Freedom to shoot where you want would introduce sport for all , but of a quality that meant it would hardly be worth going.

 

There is very little land in England outside of nature reserves that is not shot over now by someone. You also have to bear in mind that some people will not allow shooting on their land so while we may not agree we should respect their opinion.

 

Its not hard to find shooting though you might have to wait a year or two to find what you realy want , so why rock the boat and risk loseing it all. There was a time when coastal wildfowling was free for all in England , but few would want to return to that system as under club control wildfowling is better today that it ever was on the free marshes in the old days for one reason, the clubs control the shooting level.

[deershooter]

I rent 57 acres for deer shooting the land next door is rented to an other, as he has to walk down a track on my land (joint access) we have flags at the gate as soon as we arrive the flag goes up if you arrive and the flag is up it's 2 blasts on the car horn to let the other know you have arrived

 

Deershooter

[evo]

crazy springs to mind,,,

 

Rambo,s with guns running round our parks lol

 

phew,,i dread to think what would happen,,so stupid not worth a vote

 

atb evo

[955i]

The parks in London would be full of teenage COD snipers with air rifles after the squizzers

[scotslad]

Would be great if it was possible.

 

Unfortunately never going to happen and to be honest that is probably a good thing, to many duckwits nowadays, not enough people being with common sense.

This country is far to overcrowded for it to ever work, likes of USA or NZ were it works well have really vast areas of wilderness where people simply don't go

 

In theory (some of u older generation may know the proper law) the old MAFF used to have the power to go onto anyones land to control pest species, in those days rabbits and ragwort, no matter if u wanted them controlled or not. I would imagine the legislation still exists which u could use for controling grey squirrels/corvids, But the type of people who now live in the coutryside are diferent to those days amd many would go mental at the thought of smeone coming onto there land and shooting stuff aggainst there wishes.

 

Kent have u had any dealings with the FC?

In theory that could be more possible, but the FC are a complete nightmare to deal with, also all there woods are actively open to everyone so high disturbance. Generallly never the easiest stalking either

 

Fc grounds are not unshot its just all done by the rangers, volanteer stalkers would simply not be up to the job, the FC (or any other woodland company) is there to grow a crop, deer eat and damage that crop, don't think u would have many commercially vaible crops left if all deer managemnet left to amatuer's

[kent]

Would be great if it was possible.

 

Unfortunately never going to happen and to be honest that is probably a good thing, to many duckwits nowadays, not enough people being with common sense.

This country is far to overcrowded for it to ever work, likes of USA or NZ were it works well have really vast areas of wilderness where people simply don't go

 

In theory (some of u older generation may know the proper law) the old MAFF used to have the power to go onto anyones land to control pest species, in those days rabbits and ragwort, no matter if u wanted them controlled or not. I would imagine the legislation still exists which u could use for controling grey squirrels/corvids, But the type of people who now live in the coutryside are diferent to those days amd many would go mental at the thought of smeone coming onto there land and shooting stuff aggainst there wishes.

 

Kent have u had any dealings with the FC?

In theory that could be more possible, but the FC are a complete nightmare to deal with, also all there woods are actively open to everyone so high disturbance. Generallly never the easiest stalking either

 

Fc grounds are not unshot its just all done by the rangers, volanteer stalkers would simply not be up to the job, the FC (or any other woodland company) is there to grow a crop, deer eat and damage that crop, don't think u would have many commercially vaible crops left if all deer managemnet left to amateur's

 

Actually I have, there are some very good FC lads controlling deer and some very, very poor ones. I remember a particular Tillhill lease were the old pro stalker who lost his job when it was let said they would never control it with "amateurs" Dead wrong a large cull was taken from the off bigger by far than his non achieved cull (the ground honestly needed it) and its been well managed by the same group for well over a decade now.

 

FC leases in Scotland are a nightmare for English stalkers to lease and basically get for want of a better word get poached by the rangers when they know their tenant is not going up that day. I know another spot, an estate with game shooting interests were a number of semi tame fallow are kept. On shoot days as the woods are driven the deer jump the boundaries and enter an FC woodland and get slaughtered by their waiting rangers, claiming damage! I mean if they waited two hours after sunset there wouldn't be a single deer on their ground (not that Fallow do a lot of tree damage to mature spruce). Truth was they got to harvest a load of carcasses. I think it 100% depends on the head ranger in charge.

[kent]

The parks in London would be full of teenage COD snipers with air rifles after the squizzers

 

Is that a bad thing? I know many a bad lad who turned good because they got into shooting and wanted to protect their right to do so. Are these teenagers the same ones who are out dealing drugs and stabbing each other? I should rather they were out hunting squizzers with airguns than each other and innocent victims with handguns

[kent]

Well over twice as many have voted than have commented and one of those who commented said they thought it stupid to vote, that begs a question on why comment me thinks LOL.

 

I do agree with the barren ground theory having seen it abroad, but if we are talking pests- that represents a good thing and a saving surely? I was down Weymouth a number of years ago fishing with a guy twice my age as guests of a bloke of similar vintage. Anyhow the rock wall sea defences there were heaving with rats and my travel companion suggested if the council couldn't afford to get to grips with the vermin perhaps the local teenage lads could? The thought terrified me but then I thought on about how such action was ignored by the local coppers etc as I grew up and that's only 30-35 years ago, then we sit here saying we cant get them of their computer games and how childhood obesity is growing (jeeze I hardly had time to eat with all that shooting, fishing, ferreting and dog work).

This is not let them steal our shooting leases communist rant, its about opening up a little ground for our sport after all the amount of work that's been done for fat middle aged office blokes and their expensive mountain bikes

[bostonmick]

So if public shooting was allowed does that mean that anyone could put that as the need on the application.as I feel this would unleash all kinds of problems.i voted no.

[kent]

So if public shooting was allowed does that mean that anyone could put that as the need on the application.as I feel this would unleash all kinds of problems.i voted no.

 

No as for one thing it does not pertain to firearms alone, there is no way on this planet you will get access to use such good reason as one might reasobably use a competence test. Try taking on deer leases without a level 2, look at the Scottish competent person register.

 

The detail is to discuss the basis of the idea is the vote, its highly unlikely that anyone could get this through anyhow so its theory only

[CharlieT]

Kent,

 

You must remember that to some degree it already happens.

 

The FC already let a vast proportion of their land for stalking and other shooting and have been doing so for years. Nearly 50 years ago I took the shooting lease on 1000 acres of FC land in Hampshire.

 

Same goes for MD land where use permits.

 

You mention common land, although you may not be aware that common land is nearly always privately owned and is therefore not public land, so by default would not be available as a public land shooting area.

 

I say again, unlike the USA and other such countries there is very little "public land" as such in this small country and what there is, where appropriate, is already available for shooting.

 

The way forward is for everyone who shoots to make time to take a youngster out with them on their ground as often as possible. Just think how many young airgunners that would help.

[kent]

Kent,

 

You must remember that to some degree it already happens.

 

The FC already let a vast proportion of their land for stalking and other shooting and have been doing so for years. Nearly 50 years ago I took the shooting lease on 1000 acres of FC land in Hampshire.

 

Same goes for MD land where use permits.

 

You mention common land, although you may not be aware that common land is nearly always privately owned and is therefore not public land, so by default would not be available as a public land shooting area.

 

I say again, unlike the USA and other such countries there is very little "public land" as such in this small country and what there is, where appropriate, is already available for shooting.

 

The way forward is for everyone who shoots to make time to take a youngster out with them on their ground as often as possible. Just think how many young airgunners that would help.

 

Actually in many other countries you don't own the game that is on your land only the land and certain people can come onto it and hunt that game. I am not suggesting this is correct , but is our system? Have you held the same lease for all that 50yrs?

[CharlieT]

Have you held the same lease for all that 50yrs?

 

No, after I finished Agri college, I took a job down that way so took the lease on for 5 years to supplement the rather sparse shooting on the farm I worked on. I didn't try to renew as I moved back here. If memory serves me, I think it was £25 a year, but that equated to 4 weeks wages.