Do you really want this lot

[wymberley]

Thanks to the Queen the commonwealth is alive and strong,and Britain is at the centre of it

British to the core. I'll let you off, you being too young to vote in '75.

 

Edit: Typo

Edited May 21, 2014 by wymberley

[TriBsa]

 

Sorry, I didn't answer this question directly. The best hope of getting a genuine referendum lies in keeping the pressure on. More, much more of what has got us this far. The pinprick of light in the far distance that is a Tory referendum has only appeared because of Ukip. The pressure is working but we are not there yet by a very long way. It must become an unconditional reality. It could be that Cameron will have a road to Damascus moment and rediscover his inner sovereign British Conservatism. I think it is more likely he will discover a need to spend more time with his family. Personally I don't care about the general election. Until this question is finally settled domestic politics is a side show. I think it will take another hung Parliament and a change of Tory leadership. I intend to keep pushing.

 

Exactly, it's all about pressure. Tomorrow's EU elections and then the Newark by-election on the 5th of June (the original planned date for D Day). If UKIP could win that it would turn the Conservative's "Vote UKIP get Labour" argument for the General Election on it's head.

 

Tom

Edited May 21, 2014 by TriBsa

[Nial]

 

Which is exactly why Cameron hasn't really made any effort with the 'NO' campaign.

 

He knows Labour are finished if Scotland leaves the union, and if they stay in the union it'll be on his 'watch'. It's a win win situation for the Tories.

Milliband's days are numbered. He's weak, ineffective and indecisive. I bet they're wishing they'd gone for his brother now.

 

Going off topic again but...

 

I don't think that's Cameron's reason for not being too involved.

 

There's an irrational rejection of him because he's seen as a 'posh English Tory' here in Scotland. If he's seen to be telling Scottish

people what to do the SNP will use that to stir up more anti English sentiment (in the hard of thinking) that will play into their hands.

 

By standing back and letting a senior Scottish Labour figure lead the NO campaign he's not allowing that to happen.

 

IMHO.

 

Nial.

[amateur]

 

 

 

 

Isn't this more UKIP?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co

[overandunder2012]

 

Isn't this more UKIP?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co

[welsh1]

 

Isn't this more UKIP?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co

Congratulations.

 

24 pages of arguing, laughs and banter and you have just signified the beginning of the end by invoking Godwin's law.

I suppose it was bound to happen,and is the last resort of the person with no valid argument.

[FalconFN]

 

Sorry, I didn't answer this question directly. The best hope of getting a genuine referendum lies in keeping the pressure on. More, much more of what has got us this far. The pinprick of light in the far distance that is a Tory referendum has only appeared because of Ukip. The pressure is working but we are not there yet by a very long way. It must become an unconditional reality. It could be that Cameron will have a road to Damascus moment and rediscover his inner sovereign British Conservatism. I think it is more likely he will discover a need to spend more time with his family. Personally I don't care about the general election. Until this question is finally settled domestic politics is a side show. I think it will take another hung Parliament and a change of Tory leadership. I intend to keep pushing.

It is somewhat ironic that you say you don't care about the GE when it is that, and ONLY that that has any bearing on our future with the EU - all the UKIP MEP's in the world will have no power to change domestic policy (and despite what you say, domestic policy is more important than the EU or any treaty we have signed because it is the only possible means of exit).

 

I also think you are putting too much emphasis on political ideology as political parties are only successful if they represent the will of the people - when parties stop listening, as they obviously have, you get shabby fear-preachers like UKIP stepping in to fill the void. Emotive language like 'buying votes' is one view, 'recognising the concerns of voters' is another way to put it, but they mean the same thing, there is no distinction between the two in politics - as Farage said on R4 this morning 'I would do a deal with the devil to get what I want'.

 

A demonstration of the will of the people, as represented by support for UKIP, will push policy and ideology change but UKIP themselves have no lobbying power, they hold no political influence are not pressuring the government; they are a vehicle of change not the driver.

Edited May 21, 2014 by FalconFN

[Fisherman Mike]

Whether you are UKIP, Conservative, Labour, Lib Deb, Natural England, BNP, NF, MR loony or Klu Klux Klan….to withdraw your government from the biggest Economy in the world in the 21st century is absolute folly and will be total disaster for GB Industry and Commerce.
I don’t doubt that UKIP will do very well in tomorrow’s protest elections and get plenty of MEP’s travelling over to Brussels for an extended holiday at the taxpayers’ expense. Thereafter what will they do.? The party will disintegrate and desist after the next General Election.
Early next week the markets will react to any victory of UKIP at the polls and the melt down will start with millions of pounds being wiped off Eurozone backed and GB held funds, equities and shares… I would advise anyone who has a flexible investment plan to re distribute these now as a precaution before it’s too late and you lose a pile off your pensions or investments… That’s not scaremongering that’s a message I’ve just received from my Fund Manager.
Nige has already shifted most of his I expect no doubt bought a load of Krugerrands and stuffed them away in Switzerland.

[welsh1]

Whether you are UKIP, Conservative, Labour, Lib Deb, Natural England, BNP, NF, MR loony or Klu Klux Klan….to withdraw your government from the biggest Economy in the world in the 21st century is absolute folly and will be total disaster for GB Industry and Commerce.

I don’t doubt that UKIP will do very well in tomorrow’s protest elections and get plenty of MEP’s travelling over to Brussels for an extended holiday at the taxpayers’ expense. Thereafter what will they do.? The party will disintegrate and desist after the next General Election.

Early next week the markets will react to any victory of UKIP at the polls and the melt down will start with millions of pounds being wiped off Eurozone backed and GB held funds, equities and shares… I would advise anyone who has a flexible investment plan to re distribute these now as a precaution before it’s too late and you lose a pile off your pensions or investments… That’s not scaremongering that’s a message I’ve just received from my Fund Manager.

Nige has already shifted most of his I expect no doubt bought a load of Krugerrands and stuffed them away in Switzerland.

 

Have a read.

http://www.global-vision.net/1/post/2013/11/eu-28-is-no-longer-the-worlds-largest-economy.html

[overandunder2012]

no doubt bought a load of Krugerrands and stuffed them away in Switzerland.

id have done that in the 1st place

[henry d]

 

Have a read.

http://www.global-vision.net/1/post/2013/11/eu-28-is-no-longer-the-worlds-largest-economy.html

 

Had a read and did a bit of exploring, they seem to share the same place as the New Culture Forum, Tax Payers Alliance, CIVITAS, Business for Britain, and not surprising "Big Brother Watch"

 

Hardly partisan are they?

Edited May 21, 2014 by henry d

[FalconFN]

 

Have a read.

http://www.global-vision.net/1/post/2013/11/eu-28-is-no-longer-the-worlds-largest-economy.html

So your point is what? The EU probably is the largest economy but might be second? The EU may be over taken in the future? Either way it is the, or very nearly, biggest economy in the world NOW.

 

If the UK left the EU then the EU economy would shink - no $%!* Sherlock!

[welsh1]

So your point is what? The EU probably is the largest economy but might be second? The EU may be over taken in the future? Either way it is the, or very nearly, biggest economy in the world NOW.

 

If the UK left the EU then the EU economy would shink - no $%!* Sherlock!

The point is that you stated that the eu was the biggest economy,there are people who say it is not,and in the near future will be over taken by rising economys, india and china for example, the very economy's we could be chasing as an independent nation,free from the restrictions imposed on us by the eu.

 

Most economists agree that the eu is not growing at the rate the eu itself predicted and this causes concern for anyone investing in the eu dream.

[welsh1]

 

Had a read and did a bit of exploring, they seem to share the same place as the New Culture Forum, Tax Payers Alliance, CIVITAS, Business for Britain, and not surprising "Big Brother Watch"

 

Hardly partisan are they?You are correct they are not partisan

 

par·ti·san

ˈpärtəzən/

noun

1. 1.

   a strong supporter of a party, cause, or person.

   synonyms: supporter, follower, adherent, devotee, champion; More

it's all rosy in the eu dream,

 

you should look at who they are.And who they have worked for.

http://www.global-vision.net/who-we-are.html

 

And their mission statement

 

Global Vision is a non-partisan campaign group that believes Britain needs to negotiate a looser, more modern relationship with the EU to reflect the rapidly changing world of the 21st century. The new relationship should be based on trade and mutual recognition, whilst opting out of political and economic union.

[henry d]

Yeah, so I missed out the "non" part, so shoot me!

[welsh1]

Yeah, so I missed out the "non" part, so shoot me!

Why would i want to shoot you over your stupid mistake?

[FalconFN]

The point is that you stated that the eu was the biggest economy,there are people who say it is not,and in the near future will be over taken by rising economys, india and china for example, the very economy's we could be chasing as an independent nation,free from the restrictions imposed on us by the eu.

 

Most economists agree that the eu is not growing at the rate the eu itself predicted and this causes concern for anyone investing in the eu dream.

That is desperate splitting of hairs I'm afraid, and entirely misses the point. Whether the EU marginally is 1st or 2nd is not the point, the point is as a truly massive economy the EU has more buying and negotiating power than any single European country on it's own. I'm not saying that has to come with political union in the EU BTW, just pointing out that knee-jerk reactions against anything with the word Europe in says more about the mindset of some people than it does about EU facts. Keep an open mind and you will see that the EU has BOTH positive and negative effects on us and the world......

[amateur]

Congratulations.

 

24 pages of arguing, laughs and banter and you have just signified the beginning of the end by invoking Godwin's law.

I suppose it was bound to happen,and is the last resort of the person with no valid argument.

 

No, not at all - it just seemed rather odd that you were using "Tomorrow", and I was merely pointing out an alternative song with "Tomorrow" in the title.

[welsh1]

That is desperate splitting of hairs I'm afraid, and entirely misses the point. Whether the EU marginally is 1st or 2nd is not the point, the point is as a truly massive economy the EU has more buying and negotiating power than any single European country on it's own. I'm not saying that has to come with political union in the EU BTW, just pointing out that knee-jerk reactions against anything with the word Europe in says more about the mindset of some people than it does about EU facts. Keep an open mind and you will see that the EU has BOTH positive and negative effects on us and the world......

You are correct i was splitting hairs, but the eu does not go out with the interest of one country in mind, and it will act for the collective good,and this inevitably does not get the very best deal for individual countries.those individual countries cannot then negotiate with the country the deal has been done as it is against the eu rules.As an independent trading country we could negotiate our own trade for our own good,people will still trade with us and some may be more willing as they will not be encumbered by the rules the eu impose.Being the biggest(second biggest) is not always the best.

 

No, not at all - it just seemed rather odd that you were using "Tomorrow", and I was merely pointing out an alternative song with "Tomorrow" in the title.

You invoked it,no one else just you.

[keg]

I'm happy to stay trading with the EU, that was the whole point of the Common Market, i just don't want the political control.

 

It was fine until the politicians got involved.

[overandunder2012]

lets see what tomorrow holds what ever way it goes its going to be interesting

[Fisherman Mike]

Global Vision..?

 

Spec savers competition or two members of the WI with too much time on their hands ?

[FalconFN]

You are correct i was splitting hairs, but the eu does not go out with the interest of one country in mind, and it will act for the collective good,and this inevitably does not get the very best deal for individual countries.those individual countries cannot then negotiate with the country the deal has been done as it is against the eu rules.As an independent trading country we could negotiate our own trade for our own good,people will still trade with us and some may be more willing as they will not be encumbered by the rules the eu impose.Being the biggest(second biggest) is not always the best.

I'm not sure I believe your reasoning. Ok, 2 scenarios; 1. You are an international company trading with the 28 countries in the EU so you have to adhere to certain standards and rules, which no doubt have certain associated costs.

 

Scenario 2. You are an international company trading with 28 separate countries within Europe, so you have to adhere to 28 different standards and rules, which will have an even greater associated cost.

 

This is a very simplified argument for one benefit of the EU but it is a valid one.

[welsh1]

I'm not sure I believe your reasoning. Ok, 2 scenarios; 1. You are an international company trading with the 28 countries in the EU so you have to adhere to certain standards and rules, which no doubt have certain associated costs.

Some of these costs imposed on you are prohibitive and you decide that it just isn't worth jumping through those hoops and look elsewhere in the world for your market

 

Scenario 2. You are an international company trading with 28 separate countries within Europe, so you have to adhere to 28 different standards and rules, which will have an even greater associated cost.

These 28 countries all vie for your custom and make individual deals that make it worth while trading with them,and as a plus you can negotiate with each country individually should theirs or your position change

 

This is a very simplified argument for one benefit of the EU but it is a valid one. Again simplified argument

[TriBsa]

I'm not sure I believe your reasoning. Ok, 2 scenarios; 1. You are an international company trading with the 28 countries in the EU so you have to adhere to certain standards and rules, which no doubt have certain associated costs.

 

Scenario 2. You are an international company trading with 28 separate countries within Europe, so you have to adhere to 28 different standards and rules, which will have an even greater associated cost.

 

This is a very simplified argument for one benefit of the EU but it is a valid one.

 

So an international company from an independent Britain will have a readily accessible market in the EU by your argument.