BASCing or not in reflected glory ?

[David BASC]

Morning all,

 

Firstly, when I get the summary on the medical fees issue posted on the BASC web site I intend to start a new thread on here - i.e. 'medical fees update'.

 

I certainly do not mind criticism, indeed, if I did not want to be taken to task or receive criticism I would not be on here!

 

However, I do think its a bit much when someone dismiss all the work that BASC did in Durham to stop them issuing compulsory medical report forms with their applications and renewals and insinuating that if these were not filled it in could prevent or delay the application/ renewal process as simply 'flim flam', either that poster was trying to discredit BASC or perhaps was simply ignorant of the facts.

 

On training, as I have said before there is no demand on the horizon from the police or the Home Office to introduce compulsory testing across the UK for licence applications, variations or renewals.

 

However more and more people are looking for training to help improve their shooting or indeed improve their shoot. Lots of courses along these lines have been developed by BASC and we are going through a process of reviewing each one, in terms of its suitability, cost and most importantly making sure we have trainers available to deliver the courses in the right areas of the UK.

 

David

[TIGHTCHOKE]

David your posts are most welcome, as is healthy polite debate.

[Lampwick]

Freedom of expression Freedom of choice that's what my dad said he chased Rommel round the desert for to give me freedom of choice. Now you cant tell people because they are not members of BASC they cant give criticism I been reading these posts for a while.

A lot of critics about political parties where only paid up members critics I do not think so

Those critics of RSPCA and RSPB are they paid up members you cannot have it all one way.

 

How narrow minded of some members to think that because you are not a member of an organisation you can not comment on it.

Sometimes you need to be on the outside looking in to see where things are going wrong,it is a person with a closed mind that does not assimilate all information before making a decision.

Firstly "Here here" some rather daft comments posted which deserve these responses.

 

By the way, I can't see why this thread should be closed? (Why the mention of it) I have quite enjoyed the five page read and can only say if it tires you don't read it.

[ColinF]

I agree I left and joined SACS

 

I know that they provide members insurance, but what are SACS doing to represent your interests? I haven't heard their name mentioned in connection with any of the issues raised in this thread, it may be that they are more active north of the border?

[neutron619]

Firstly, when I get the summary on the medical fees issue posted on the BASC web site I intend to start a new thread on here - i.e. 'medical fees update'.

 

Thank you David. I'll look out for this.

[wymberley]

Re Posts #97&98.

 

Kes' thread is about BASC and I was talking about BASC.

 

Rightly or wrongly, there is a perceived notion that BASC has had a lack-lustre performance in the areas under discussion and is getting some flack as a result. My point was that if ever some bright spark decided that we needed some form of regulation, then BASC would get a lot more flack from members if this were to occur and they'd done nothing to prevent it. So we're talking of a contingency plan. With its volunteer basis, PAS worked well, very well indeed, such that FACE was of the opinion that it met the formal requirements of the European countries where such was in force. Additionally, it was also very cost effective. Whether or not The Handbook of Shooting trilogy would ever be completed I know not, but, albeit with some updating, the shotgun element is already in existence so all that would be required would be a similar format for air rifle and rifle (but now obviously excluding the stalking element. I agree that there is no demand on the horizon for compulsory testing at the moment. Some years ago there was no mention of NTS either - not to mention more recently the idea of medical background checks. Surely, BASC will not wish to make the same mistake again.

 

In all walks of life one often gets what one deserves. I hear from NGO that maybe, just maybe if we play by the rules we have nothing to fear from the LAG Report when it's finally published. Should BASC have a training programme in place, then it too will have no fear of any backlash from members if it does all hit the fan. The only problem is is that canny bright spark mentioned above is going to say, 'Yep, a good set up which meets the requirements that we have in mind. Now tell me, how many shooters have voluntarily opted to do it? So, we're all against compulsory testing and in favour of voluntary schemes. The only requirement is that we volunteer.

[wymberley]

 

 

 

By the way, I can't see why this thread should be closed? (Why the mention of it) I have quite enjoyed the five page read and can only say if it tires you don't read it.

That was me. See Post #95. It wouldn't be the first time that when the OP has indicated that he has no more input and that the thread has reached a natural end, the thread has been rightly closed. I just wanted to pre-empt that.

[David BASC]

I understand your points wymberly, but some years ago there was no demand for driving tests, or for organic lead to be removed from petrol, or for asbestos not to be used in buildings, or ...well perhaps you take my point that things change.

 

Some things we cannot stop from changing, so some things will change but we need to make sure that any changes have the least or little or no impact on the sport that binds us all together.

 

We can do our best, and we will always do our best with the resources we have, but I agree that on some issue we need to be much more clear on what's happening and what BASC is doing about it, and how BASC will support its members - the medical reports issue is a classic example and I'm working on it!

 

David

[phaedra1106]

Hi David, if you have any more dealings with Durham could you get them to stop making us specify the action type and exact chambering for rifle slots. Two of us have variation requests "on hold" as they insist the trigger release VZ58 sold by Caledonian Classic Arms isn't on the database despite it being fully H.O. approved and having already being sold in Scotland and several other constabulary areas in England. They have been provided with the contact details for the other forces, Caledonian etc. but still say they need to speak to the H.O. and ACPO (what have ACPO got to do with it?), the other applicants variation has been in for 28 days while they mess us about.

 

Of course if they actually followed firearms legislation and the H.O. guidance they wouldn't be asking for the action type and chambering to be specified to start with. Yet another example of shoddy practices and making more work for themselves.

 

Sorry to go off topic.

 

For anyone who hasn't seen these there's a video here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-oCbZ4njiE

Edited September 3, 2014 by phaedra1106

[wymberley]

I understand your points wymberly, but some years ago there was no demand for driving tests, or for organic lead to be removed from petrol, or for asbestos not to be used in buildings, or ...well perhaps you take my point that things change.

 

Some things we cannot stop from changing, so some things will change but we need to make sure that any changes have the least or little or no impact on the sport that binds us all together.

 

We can do our best, and we will always do our best with the resources we have, but I agree that on some issue we need to be much more clear on what's happening and what BASC is doing about it, and how BASC will support its members - the medical reports issue is a classic example and I'm working on it!

 

David

Thank you, David.

 

If, on behalf of BASC, you agree that change is inevitable and cannot be stopped and as the scenario that I've indicated is not inconceivable - there is amongst shooters a train of thought that this is possibly, if not probably, on the cards - has, or does the Organisation intend to do, done anything about it even on a contingency basis?

 

You've spent quite some time on this topic and I'm sure that you have other things to get on with so a quick yes or no answer will suffice.

[David BASC]

phaedra1106 , will do.

 

wymberley We are building up our network of coaches / trainers covering shotgun, airgun and stalking

[wymberley]

wymberley We are building up our network of coaches / trainers covering shotgun, airgun and stalking

Thank you, David.

 

I take it that that answer relates to trainers for the existing offerings only. Some 25 years ago the previous BASC Director before being promoted to that position asked the member of the Education Dep't who was also attending a meeting of Hon REDOs the same question that I asked following a straw poll the result of which shook him rigid. He got the same answer as I've just had - no. So, no change there then.

 

Personally, I'm not too fussed as fortunately - or unfortunately dependent on how you look at it - I'm very probably fireproof, but for the up and coming youngsters I fervently hope that the threat which I and others consider possible as you say remains very firmly below the horizon. Finally, from me on this thread, that's a gamble I would not wish to take.

Edited September 3, 2014 by wymberley

[David BASC]

No it does not, there are other training opportunities that members have asked us to look into and develop. So contrary to what you think , things have and are changing.

[wymberley]

No it does not, there are other training opportunities that members have asked us to look into and develop. So contrary to what you think , things have and are changing.

Very well, one last attempt.

 

Would you:

 

a. for the benefit of your members care to elaborate on that answer, and

 

b. would you categorically state whether or not BASC has or has not any contingency arrangements in place should the worst happen regarding any introduction form of compulsory training? Let's be honest here, David, anything other than a straightforward 'yes' or 'no', will be taken by me (and I suspect others) as a 'no'.

[David BASC]

BASC do not see any prospect what so ever of compulsory testing at this time

 

Demand from members is for more courses, especially aimed at improving their shooting

 

BASC in increasing the types of courses that we currently run

 

BASC is training more coaches and trainers opt deliver shooting courses to meet this demand

 

As a consequence, should compulsory testing ever come into force, there will be a nationwide network of qualified BASC trainers on hand to help.

Edited September 3, 2014 by David BASC

[wymberley]

BASC do not see any prospect what so ever of compulsory testing at this time

 

Demand from members is for more courses, especially aimed at improving their shooting

 

BASC in increasing the types of courses that we currently run

 

BASC is training more coaches and trainers opt deliver shooting courses to meet this demand

 

As a consequence, should compulsory testing ever come into force, there will be a nationwide network of qualified BASC trainers on hand to help.

Gents,

 

I would ask that you take the timescale between this and BASC's last post as an indication that as I said I would post no more on this topic. However, I'm at a loss on two counts. The first is that I've read something (which is personal and which will remain so) and which has left me with no option to add further to the thread.

 

The second count is that BASC has yet again failed to answer the question it was asked. One cannot do other than admire their PR skills but we are not politicians who thrive on this waffle, but shooters. There is an old HM Forces expression which I'll have to alter that states that, " bullpooh baffles brains". But, there is yet another which goes, " never try to bullpooh the bullpoohers". (Attempting this on the inland guys is silly enough but to do so on the roughy toughy foreshore 'fowlers with regard to the greylag/GL situation is nothing less than downright crass stupidity.

 

Consequently, in the absence of any elaboration regarding the training opportunities mentioned by BASC at Post #113 as requested at item a. at Post #114, it is not possible to do other than assume this is more of the one day variety. Having said that, as BASC is now run on a business footing, I do understand that releasing information before a scheme is fully implemented does give the competitors a chance to steal one's thunder. In which case all BASC had to do was simply say that further information would be released in the fullness of time.

 

Presently, we are told, BASC sees no prospect of compulsory testing. Surely if any organisation wishes to endure, and particularly one which has a duty to its fee paying members, it should also be safeguarding its and their prospects for the future by looking further than the end of their noses.

 

Should the gods deem to smite us, then you can be pretty damned sure that they're not going to settle for a couple of shallow one day courses. Should the requirement be washed up on our shores from Europe, you can absolutely guarantee that something far more extensive will be required - just ask anyone with experience of shooting over there, not perhaps as a visitor but as a resident. Similarly, if the threat is home grown, then everybody and their granny is going to have their sticky little finger in OUR pie. The 'conservationists/protectionists will want their piece, the antis will want to make it as difficult as possible and I dare say that the larger field sports associations ( not one in particular though as that one didn't even recognise that there was even a possibility of the gods acting in such an unseemly manner and as a result has been caught utterly flat footed) will be looking for a right little big money spinner. The only hope for the one previously in brackets is that if it does happen then there is some advance warning. Based upon previous experience, anywhere between 3 and 5 years will be required to complete their preparations. If it was your business, would you take that gamble, but more importantly do you think that your customers would still be around some few years down the line?

 

 

I'm hoping that the above goes some way in repaying the particular kindness that was recently shown to me.

[David BASC]

I honestly thought I had answered your question, but to have you describe my answer as simply bullpooh is rather churlish in my personal view.

 

Secondly, as there is no prospect of compulsory testing, and as a consequence no indication what so ever as to what things will specifically need to be taught and assessed to meet the test standards (which again I point out is not even on the horizon) perhaps you can tell me and all others on here how the heck BASC could design a syllabus to meet said (non existent) standards?

 

Finally, please explain to me why any business would commit resources to developing a product with no specification, no demand and no market?

 

With the training resources we have, I am 100% confident that IF ever compulsory testing was mooted in the UK, BASC could develop such a course and train a nationwide network of trainers, and set up an assessment centre inside a year, and given that IF compulsory training was ever going to be implemented, then the lead in time would be of the order of three years, I respectfully suggest that contrary to what you and others may think, BASC is most certainly geared up to deal with an situation that may evolve concerning compulsory training.

 

David

[Cranfield]

People ask "why do these topics get closed ?".

They get closed because what starts off as interesting discussion and information seeking from BASC, ends up with hectoring posts (bordering on bullying) to BASC, seeking information, or statements that have either already been given, or are unavailable.

DavidBASC never complains to us about this tendency and maintains his cool when responding , which must be difficult at times.

 

We provide a Forum, not a whipping post.