Dan.lord Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hi all, I thought I'd share my attempts at reloading As you can see I have the Lee Load All II. I spoke to or rather e mailed Amelia at Clay & game reloaders, who was very helpful & went for this load as I only intend to use them for clays. 23gn x 1oz 7.5 shot I am using :- 1. Cheddite 70mm new cases with Cheddite CX2000 primers. 2. Gualandi V-Zero 25 plastic wads 3. Vectan AS-32 powder 4. 7.5 lead shot As the Lee Load All isn't really suited to the Vectan powder, I also got the lee powder measure, & after many attempts I got just the right powder load each time, & differs very little per measure. I tried both the 6 & 8 crimp points & tbh I'm impressed with the results, I've also ordered a spinner to finish off the end, but as yet it's not arrived. looking forward to trying them out now Cheers Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 How much does it cost you to make these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) What's the recipe, never heard of AS32 If it's just Vectan AS 23grains of powder is a bit hot, the usual dose would be 20-21grains under an ounce of shot. Edited October 30, 2014 by sitsinhedges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 What's the recipe, never heard of AS32 If it's just Vectan AS 23grains of powder is a bit hot, the usual dose would be 20-21grains under an ounce of shot. C&G Data is: 70mm case, cx2000, 23grns AS, Gualandi v-zero 25, 28grams 2.3mm, 6pt crimp extra VM FPS, 1446, 1397@2m 554.1 bar. That's their data Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus1988 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 C&G Data is: 70mm case, cx2000, 23grns AS, Gualandi v-zero 25, 28grams 2.3mm, 6pt crimp extra VM FPS, 1446, 1397@2m 554.1 bar. That's their data What's the "2.3mm" related to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 shot size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Apologies, should have said.........good job Dan.lord I find the lee is fine for Vectan powders, throws more consistent charges than my mec. But you run out of bushes for it using A1 and 32grm loads. Edited October 30, 2014 by turbo33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 C&G Data is: 70mm case, cx2000, 23grns AS, Gualandi v-zero 25, 28grams 2.3mm, 6pt crimp extra VM FPS, 1446, 1397@2m 554.1 bar. That's their data That recipe is on the old claygame CD but the pressure data is left blank on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan.lord Posted October 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hi, yes I've just followed the C&G data sheet, i'm way to much of a beginner to experiment As for cost, well I've not worked it out tbh, what wit buying the kit etc , I'm sure it's probably cheaper to buy ready made cartridges, but for me it's the fun of making them & seeing a reasonable cartridge come out the end I'll give the load all a try with the powder bush, I was only going by the list I got from C & G The lee powder thingy does a good job though. I'm going to pick up some old cases at the range next time I go & give them a whirl too Whats the difference between 6 & 8 crimp, apart from the 8 has two more crimps than the 6 naturally Oh Turbo33 ta I'm pleased with my efforts so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 MAG357 and myself reload using vectan AS powder.... Cases picked up from the clay ground i use PONSNESS WARREN 800 loader. We find the super fast cases reload very well.. Primer are RIO 18.5 grains vectan AS 28 grams no 7 shot for clays or 6 for the pigeons we just change shot size and never alter the powder.... as with 18.5 grains its smooth and still kills some long range birds.... Started off a few years ago reloading and found with 23 grains we got a lot of muzzle flip so just reduced the powder by half a grain at a time till we found a nice smooth load... once found never altered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 MAG357 and myself reload using vectan AS powder.... Cases picked up from the clay ground i use PONSNESS WARREN 800 loader. We find the super fast cases reload very well.. Primer are RIO 18.5 grains vectan AS 28 grams no 7 shot for clays or 6 for the pigeons we just change shot size and never alter the powder.... as with 18.5 grains its smooth and still kills some long range birds.... Started off a few years ago reloading and found with 23 grains we got a lot of muzzle flip so just reduced the powder by half a grain at a time till we found a nice smooth load... once found never altered... Sounds like a sensible cost effective method of reloading Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo33 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Hi, yes I've just followed the C&G data sheet, i'm way to much of a beginner to experiment As for cost, well I've not worked it out tbh, what wit buying the kit etc , I'm sure it's probably cheaper to buy ready made cartridges, but for me it's the fun of making them & seeing a reasonable cartridge come out the end I'll give the load all a try with the powder bush, I was only going by the list I got from C & G The lee powder thingy does a good job though. I'm going to pick up some old cases at the range next time I go & give them a whirl too Whats the difference between 6 & 8 crimp, apart from the 8 has two more crimps than the 6 naturally Oh Turbo33 ta I'm pleased with my efforts so far Pick ones that have had plastic wads through if you can. When they have fibre through, the case swells a bit and therefore on reloading, they might be too tight a fit in the chamber, and also the shot will settle lower due to the case being slightly over size. This means your crimps will dip inward. You can get round this by putting a card disc in the shot cup to raise it back up. Check also, the crimps of the fired case. Some are so thin, they split on first fire, so are junk. Also cases vary in quality and thickness of plastic. The poorer ones are thinner. Therefore they stretch more on first firing. So you end up with a case that's longer than the new ones. Dipped and overlapping crimps will result. Just a few problems I've found out along the way, and am passing on to help you avoid agro!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 AS is generic for AS32 there is also an AS24 and I think their may be an AS30. I find the AS works well from 24gm to 32gm (12ga) and use 1.4gm (21.6grains) in a fibre 28gm load. Dan.Lord they look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sounds like a sensible cost effective method of reloading Mike WE also make our own shot so that cuts the cost down John worked it out its costing us just under £100 per 1000.. Its also a nice pastime with us both been retired when its to wet to shoot we make shot or reload Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 Whats the difference between 6 & 8 crimp, apart from the 8 has two more crimps than the 6 naturally About 40-60 bar less pressure for the 8 crimps using the same recipe. MAG357 and myself reload using vectan AS powder.... Started off a few years ago reloading and found with 23 grains we got a lot of muzzle flip so just reduced the powder by half a grain at a time till we found a nice smooth load... once found never altered... Did you proofed the trial loads and any other from batch to batch? Vectan's powders have changed quite a lot in the past few years and every batch could be very different. Some of the batches sold in UK aren't even for retail sales! They are produced for professional reloading and the leftovers sold to the likes of C&G, Folkstone, etc (easily recognisable by the plastic container rather than the metal one) and have different ballistic characteristic, hence different data when proofed and you might find few surprises there. I bet that if you test these loads they aren't very close to the info provided on the C&G sheet/DVD!! Be careful fellas, you're dealing with explosives and they are very sensitive to changes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 About 40-60 bar less pressure for the 8 crimps using the same recipe. Did you proofed the trial loads and any other from batch to batch? ......... NO WE RELOAD TO USE NOT SEND TO THE PROOF HOUSE........ ONLY PROOFING THEY GOT WAS THEY KILLED PIGEONS AND CROWS AND BROKE THE CLAYS...... Vectan's powders have changed quite a lot in the past few years and every batch could be very different. Some of the batches sold in UK aren't even for retail sales! They are produced for professional reloading and the leftovers sold to the likes of C&G, Folkstone, etc (easily recognisable by the plastic container rather than the metal one) and have different ballistic characteristic, hence different data when proofed and you might find few surprises there. I bet that if you test these loads they aren't very close to the info provided on the C&G sheet/DVD!!............ NEVER USED THEM Be careful fellas, you're dealing with explosives and they are very sensitive to changes.... DONT WORRY WE TREAT ANYTHING THAT GOES BANG WITH THE UTMOST CARE AND RESPECT..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Vectan's powders have changed quite a lot in the past few years and every batch could be very different. Some of the batches sold in UK aren't even for retail sales! They are produced for professional reloading and the leftovers sold to the likes of C&G, Folkstone, etc (easily recognisable by the plastic container rather than the metal one) and have different ballistic characteristic, hence different data when proofed and you might find few surprises there. Sorry Continental Shooter, but I don't think you understand how and on what scale powders are manufactured or how they are imported and distributed within the UK. C&G, Folkestone etc get the leftovers .......... Just not true they buy them from the importer they get tube number n of lot number nn of a very large batch like 16,000 kg so how is it the leftovers? Do you think a business like Nobel Sport make one lot for the professionals and one lot for the reloaders??? where is the business logic in that? or the market to do so reloading in the UK is a tiny market insignificant in turns of the quantity of powder maunfactured. All powders are manufacture initially for a commercial reason be it shotgun or rifle sporting or military use and then some are made available to the reloader a secondary market. It costs around nine thousand euros to bring a container load of powder in from the EU do you think the few reloading suppliers we have selling shotgun powder each do that and if they do would want to pay that sort of money and only get the leftovers? You can be assured when you buy a decanted powder the quality of the power is to the same high standard as used by the cartridge industry not a low quality leftover. Why is it decanted and not in a 500gm tube because the price of the 500gm tube is very nearly the same as the price per kg that C&G or Folkestone charge us as reloaders and I know which I would sooner pay and why we should support them as retailers because if we do not we will have no "cheap" powder. And no they do not have different ballistic characteristics for the same logical reasons above - or show me your ballistic data that proves it. All will be much more transparent come next April because new EU ledgisaltion - Traceability of Explosives, comes in to law and then you will be able to trace any tube of powder back to the manufacture. date, time, lot etc. P.S The 500gm vectan containers are not metal but carboard tubes and sell for around £36 i.e £72 per kg. Edited November 2, 2014 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 MAG357 and myself reload using vectan AS powder.... . . Started off a few years ago reloading and found with 23 grains we got a lot of muzzle flip so just reduced the powder by half a grain at a time till we found a nice smooth load... once found never altered... But if Continental Shooter is correct you would have to adjust the load with every new tube of AS powder you got because Noble Sport sells us the reloaders the leftovers so it would be different every few weeks.......................... one week the shot may just fall out the barrel the next reach the moon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 rbrowning... you can think what you want, that's fair, but: my grampa was in the business and my uncle was in the business I've seen in all since I was a kid, so, please, save this cheap math for those who don't know! My family worked @ B&P till just before they blew up their production site and i still have plenty friends there some of which also write on specialised magazines in Italy. 16,000 kg is leftovers or thereabouts as once a production has started cannot be stopped and there will necessarily be a surplus which won't serve retail reloading of a country like Italy. or indeed someone like myself in the golden days. I currently buy 8-12 kg of powder myself, in UK, and i am not shooting or testing half as much as I used to do (i normally bouth barrels of 50 kg, direcly from leftovers @ B&P, Cheddite and NSI)... 100.000 reloaders (italy account for over 150.000 home loaders),... you do the math.... Oh yea, then you got to serve all the other countries so...yeah, 16000 kg is pretty much left overs!! The logic is also very simple: the manufacturer orders a batch to load as many cartridges of a series they can (and they generally pay millions), and the powder is made to their specs (i.e. more or less progressive) to suit their balance sheets and load specs. a save of 5cg in powder over a batch of 25.000.000 shells / 1 million boxes (they produce over 1 billion shell for shooting only, never mind how many they produce for clay disciplines), again, you do the math.... Then there is you and I who might buy 10kg a year and pay what £720....of course we will get the same stuff......yup, it is very logical!! Same thing as you would get a ferrari engine for your ferrari at the same price as if you get it for your wauxhall ... haha.... Then, what the left over is sold to the various wholesalers (like C&G and everyone in every country) they start their own production which results it the powder being sold in.......tins to the wider public (see below)!!! Chances are that if you look at the batches of C&G for the year and the retail tins .... they won't match!! Beside i got the powder from C&G and there is no batch in it, same as the one from Folkstone, so, i am also unable to check with the manufacturer for you! Again, you can think what you want but if you proof the load suggested on the NSI web site for 20g A1(27 gr) you will find that it is not 750 bar as suggested and you know why???? Because that is powder made to suit that specific load to generate that specific pressure with that specificload and the one you have is nowhere close to the one NSI loads and it definitely has different ballistic characteristic!! I think in another post i have posted 2 loads with same components made with two different batches of the same powder.... that is not something 'i have tested on the field' it is actually proofed by a professional body nonetheless the main Italian proofing house. That is what it is as it has always been like that and it will always be and that's why you should never try to replicate a factory loads... then everyone is free to think what he/she wants and do whatever he/she sees fit but please, refrain from telling bulls**** if you don't know or assume it is this way because... you think so! But then again...who am I?? i nobody with a decade experience, over 2000 proofed recipes who has friend who write on magazines and who actually teach Ballistic as a university course.... Whereas, most people in here have got the true truth infused to them by god knows whom, who tested their random recipes on pigeons and clays Sorry if i am trying to bring some safety knowledge and common sense into this forum and try to highlight some of the heresies I hear on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deershooter Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 AS is available in three types AS24 is pink and uses about 19.5 grains for 24 gram cartridges AS 32 is 20.5-21 grains for 28 gram green with pink flake AS is 18 .5 grains for 28gram green with pink flake The only way to tell the difference between AS and AS 32 is if you have it in the original 20 kg barrel it's marked up as such Deershooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) There are many reasons why a cartridge will give different ballistics to those published on a load table and the powder is potentially theOne component that is most consistent.It can not be in the manufactures interest to vary the final product by a significant amount otherwise it would not be the same powder and would need re-classification every time they made it before they could sell or legally transport it.This is easy to confirm by looking at the public classification records and ce numbers and by your reasoning there would be hundreds of entries for each powder each with different dates for each batch. And that is not the case there is only one entry for AS24 one for AS32 one for GM3 etc.That is why they "blend" the powder to ensure consistent batch to batch ballistics. Edited November 3, 2014 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 These are the range of powders made my Nobel sport with the A prefix http://www.nobelsport.it/public/pages/ENG/p_polveriVR.asp?RISUL_New=y&Ramo=0&Cat1ID=367 AS is the "lose" name for AS32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 AS is available in three types AS24 is pink and uses about 19.5 grains for 24 gram cartridges AS 32 is 20.5-21 grains for 28 gram green with pink flake AS is 18 .5 grains for 28gram green with pink flake The only way to tell the difference between AS and AS 32 is if you have it in the original 20 kg barrel it's marked up as such Deershooter indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Continental Shooter Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 There are many reasons why a cartridge will give different ballistics to those published on a load table and the powder is potentially the One component that is most consistent. It can not be in the manufactures interest to vary the final product by a significant amount otherwise it would not be the same powder and would need re-classification every time they made it before they could sell or legally transport it. This is easy to confirm by looking at the public classification records and ce numbers and by your reasoning there would be hundreds of entries for each powder each with different dates for each batch. And that is not the case there is only one entry for AS24 one for AS32 one for GM3 etc. That is why they "blend" the powder to ensure consistent batch to batch ballistics. Again, free to think what you want or what you believe it is, just be careful 'sharing your knowledge' if that is. I can back my assertion by a lot of data gathered since 1995, Writers, physicians, manufacturer reloading data and people that reload since i wasn't even born! GM3, could be load safely and efficiently in this form: Fiocchi 615 1.55gr X 32 gr star crimp finished at 58.8 now, you can reload 1.50 / 1.55 x 32/33 with an RTO which notoriously reduces the pressure. If you try the same load, you will end up with a totally unbalanced load surely over-pressured and dangerous....but that's just me, those that write books and the manufacturer. Also, what you describe as AS is the "lose" name for AS32 denotes your knowledge of powders and manufacturers. As Deershooter pointed out, these is the range of reloading, and each powder has a specific reloading characteristic which is clearly defined by the number at its side. You could exceed that by trying and proofing as all who love and study ballistic do, but it's absolutely not recommended the very scientific field trial.... BTW, you can call a shell as you please....if you want to call it A1 but is effectively A1 x 36 because is made with a specific version of A1 made to order (as need to fit a shell with 36 grams).... that's not impairing the manufacturer ability to make a powder to order, transport or passport the powder, neither the company to market the shell with that name.... What you are referring to is only valid for retail market (you and I), not industrial production (RC, Fiocchi, etc)! There are shells loaded with SIPE N and 36 grams....I wouldn't want anybody to try it...but if you want to prove your theory... be my guest. I just don't want to be involved if you end up like the bloke on the other post (poor soul)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted November 4, 2014 Report Share Posted November 4, 2014 there is data for sipe and 35 grams of shot, i`ve seen it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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