robbietherimmer Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 That's a very broad brush, what type of mental issues had you in mind. Follow your advice and there would be now one with firearms. Anxiety and panic attacks Bipolar disorder Eating problems Loneliness Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) Panic attacks Phobia Seasonal affective disorder Self-esteem Sleep problems Stress some of the above are not proper conditions but those with bipolar/stress related issues should under no circumstances have access to guns.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 some of the above are not proper conditions but those with bipolar/stress related issues should under no circumstances have access to guns.......... So anyone who has had any stress related problem should be banned from gun ownership. Why stop there anyone who has a conviction of any kind should be banned as even a speeding or parking fine shows no regard for society and others who live in it.As the saying goes there for the grace of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxie Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I can't comment on your sons associates I'm afraid, which has no relevance to a GP's report, but as far as dealing with Durham licensing and medical reports, you're with the wrong association. Your licensing authority cannot, under any circumstances, insist an applicant pays for a GP's report. I had to pay for a medical report with Kent police,when I queried it with my shooting organisation they advised me to pay for the report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead eye alan Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 My doctor signs may renewal as a referee and the FAO did not even notice this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I had to pay for a medical report with Kent police,when I queried it with my shooting organisation they advised me to pay for the report. It's entirely up to you of course, but you didn't have to pay. Personally I would change my shooting organisation if that was the advice you were given. Edited January 23, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 some of the above are not proper conditions but those with bipolar/stress related issues should under no circumstances have access to guns.......... Fortunately for me and thousands like me, neither my licensing authority, GP nor FEO shares your view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) some of the above are not proper conditions but those with bipolar/stress related issues should under no circumstances have access to guns.......... They are all regarded as proper mental conditions by the medical clinicians. So if you had trouble sleeping because of stress in your opinion you should not have access to firearms. That would rule out just about everyone owning a firearm. You have went from all mental conditions to some mental conditions, which is it and who decides. ? no offence but if someone has mental health issues then they should not have access to a gun. Edited January 23, 2015 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 It's entirely up to you of course, but you didn't have to pay. Personally I would change my shooting organisation if that was the advice you were given. could you explain how your changing organisation would help your renewal along.i can understand why you would not wish to pay for medical report above your normal fee but if the police say they want it and you will not get your cert until they have it you and all the organisations are pretty much powerless.unless of course you have unlimited funds to take the police to court.atb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Its completely wrong to state that Durham have BASC running scared, nothing could be further from the truth. There is a way to go yet, but I an confident that we will resolve this in the not too far distant future Our position and guidance on medical fees issue is here: http://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/09/Medical-reports-and-fees-web-statement.pdf Note - its important to know the point about requests for medical reports AFTER you have been granted ... It is a matter of fact that you can be revoked if you or someone in your house is associated with criminals etc,as we said at the time and our guidance in this case was clear, that in order to prevent revocation a person would need to convince the police that they were not associated with criminals. My regards to all David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) could you explain how your changing organisation would help your renewal along.The NGO have advised their members who are faced with licensing stating they must pay for a GP's report to ask the person insisting on this to supply their name, rank and or authority to make the demand, then they (the NGO) will take up the matter regarding demanding of an applicant that they comply with a non-statutory requirement. Even licensing authorities state it is a voluntary requirement. i can understand why you would not wish to pay for medical report above your normal fee but if the police say they want it and you will not get your cert until they have it The Police can 'want' all they like, but there is no obligation for an applicant to comply, nor can a licensing authority refuse on the basis an applicant has refused to comply. If an applicant refuses to comply then the police will have to contact the applicants GP themselves. Haven't all our shooting organisations been officially saying for months now that applicants should not comply? you and all the organisations are pretty much powerless.If that's the case then what are we paying them for? According to BASC there is going to come a time when ALL applicants will have to submit a GP's report, and pay for it, on top of our license fees, but it aint here yet. unless of course you have unlimited funds to take the police to court.atb Edited January 23, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Scully, Please show me where on the BASC web site or where in Shooting & Conservation BASC have made the statement that you claim? Its a rhetorical question because I know you cant Having worked for BASC for almost 20 years i cannot recall this ever being a BASC policy or position, and I can assure all reading this that this is most certainly not BASC's position or policy. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 Scully, Please show me where on the BASC web site or where in Shooting & Conservation BASC have made the statement that you claim? Its a rhetorical question because I know you cant Having worked for BASC for almost 20 years i cannot recall this ever being a BASC policy or position, and I can assure all reading this that this is most certainly not BASC's position or policy. David You're correct David , I can't. Perhaps I should have said, 'according to a senior BASC representative'. I was told the above by Mike Eveleigh during a long telephone conversation when I emailed to ask what BASC was doing regarding GP's reports. He initially asked 'what would I like them to do?', so I told him. It was a long conversation, but during its course he told me that the compulsory GP's report 'is coming, and there's nothing we can do about it'. He also told me that BASC was, or would be, negotiating a 10 year certificate lifespan 'as a compromise'. I repiled to MIcks post before reading the link you posted prior to that, and from reading it, it would appear that BASC's advice is now for an applicant on first application, or renewal, to comply to a licensing authorities request to pay for a GP's report if one is deemed necessary. Or have I misread it? On my way out,(belated Christmas bash) so please don't think I'm ignoring you if I don't respond before morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 could you explain how your changing organisation would help your renewal along.The NGO have advised their members who are faced with licensing stating they must pay for a GP's report to ask the person insisting on this to supply their name, rank and or authority to make the demand, then they (the NGO) will take up the matter regarding demanding of an applicant that they comply with a non-statutory requirement. Even licensing authorities state it is a voluntary requirement. i can understand why you would not wish to pay for medical report above your normal fee but if the police say they want it and you will not get your cert until they have it The Police can 'want' all they like, but there is no obligation for an applicant to comply, nor can a licensing authority refuse on the basis an applicant has refused to comply. If an applicant refuses to comply then the police will have to contact the applicants GP themselves. Haven't all our shooting organisations been officially saying for months now that applicants should not comply? you and all the organisations are pretty much powerless.If that's the case then what are we paying them for? According to BASC there is going to come a time when ALL applicants will have to submit a GP's report, and pay for it, on top of our license fees, but it aint here yet. unless of course you have unlimited funds to take the police to court.atb whilst I would not disagree with you that some organisations may claim to take up the case for you that will not guarantee continual shooting.as if the cert is not done by the expiry date of the old one your guns have to go elsewhere for a unspecified time.not really what you want,any police officer asking for a medical will no doubt give you their name and rank as they will be acting on behalf of the chief constable so has nothing to fear from us.as for these reports becoming the norm well there is another somewhat bigger hurdle to get over for that to happen,doctors who refuse to have anything to do with firearm forms of any kind for any reason.or perhaps the ngo will take on the medical profession as well.the whole system is a mess and partly due to the fact we are a minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 23, 2015 Report Share Posted January 23, 2015 I hope you have a great night out Scully. Yes BASC would like to see a 10 year certificate. No BASC do not say a medical report should be paid for at any time after grant, the link clearly makes the point that any such request after initial grant is a matter of enforcement and must be paid for by the police. If an applicant for initial grant puts something on their application form that merits further investigation, then it must be fully risk assessed before any request for a medical report is made and the applicant must be informed as to the reasons. There is no guidance on who pays in this instance, and as a consequence we have in inconsistent service across the UK, something both BASC and ACPO want changed - there must be a fair and consistent application of the licencing system David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) I hope you have a great night out Scully.Many thanks David, it was a very good night. I had the crab...and not for the first time. Yes BASC would like to see a 10 year certificate. No BASC do not say a medical report should be paid for at any time after grant, Perfectly clear David thank you; I fully understood that part. the link clearly makes the point that any such request after initial grant is a matter of enforcement and must be paid for by the police.I understand that part David; that is very clear, but I'm not concerned about the 'any time after grant' part. I'm concerned with iniital/renewal applications. The following sentences below leave it unclear as to who should pay at this point, and where the applicant stands regarding this for first time or renewal applications, and indeed BASC's advice to an applicant faced with a licensing authority stating that they (the applicant) must pay. What is BASC's advice at this point in the application process? If an applicant for initial grant puts something on their application form that merits further investigation, then it must be fully risk assessed before any request for a medical report is made and the applicant must be informed as to the reasons. Fully understood also David, thank you. Now the tricky part..... There is no guidance on who pays in this instance, and as a consequence we have in inconsistent service across the UK, something both BASC and ACPO want changed - there must be a fair and consistent application of the licensing system So can you explain exactly what is now BASC's advice and what an initial/renewal applicant should do when told by their FEO or licensing authority that they should pay for the GP's report? I ask as I'm one of the many who has to complete the 'if yes give further details' section. I have never been asked to pay for a GP's report, but if I am, are BASC now saying I should comply? David Edited January 24, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 I was total by Durham that if they asked for medical forms during the lifetime of the certificate (anytime within the 5 yrs)then they would pay.But they stated that as its a renewal then that's not during the lifetime of the certificate, 'although technically no gap,it's the period between an expired cert and the new cert' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Sorry for the delay in responding, been beating today, got back had a cup of tea then nodded off... Scully,if a new applicant is asked to provide a medical report, which should only be requested if there is a real need based on what the applicant has stated on their form and should not be a blanket policy by the force, and should only be requested after a proper risk assessment, our advice would be for the applicant to ensure that the reasons for that request are properly explained in the letter from the licencing authority, if not they should get back in touch with the licencing authority for a full explanation. Once they have this full explanation they should contact their shooting organisation for more advice, after all the decision by the licencing authority could be challenged. If there is a need for a medical report, then yes I agree there is now the issue of who pays - there is no longer conformation in the HO guidance on this. The police in some cases do not want to pay, the BMA do not want to pay, and i am confident that if the licencing team can show a report is warranted and without one the only option is to refuse to grant, then a legal challenge in court would fail. So to be perfectly honest the applicant in such circumstances who is asked to pay has no choice as far as I can see but to pay. i will ask on Monday when I am back in the office if there is anything else that can be done. I have no figures to hand as to how many of the approximately 30,000 new applicants per year are asked for a medical report prior to grant This is exactly why BASC is working on a solution to this issue as I have said. In my view Durham are incorrect when they state that a renewal is not in the lifetime of a certificate, by definition it has to be, you need to start the renewal process while your current certificate is still valid and not expired, QED its in the lifetime of the certificate. David David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Thanks David. So in essence the police can refuse to grant ( in the case of an applicant not being willing to pay ) because in HO office guidance it doesn't stipulate they have to pay for a GP's report, but an applicant has no option but to pay, even though in HO guidance it doesn't stipulate they have to pay for the same report either. Ah well.....seems about right; nothing unexpected there then. Disappointing doesn't seem to cover it really. Perhaps my post you objected to initially in this thread is only inaccurate by the fact it is a bit premature? Edited January 24, 2015 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Sorry for the delay in responding, been beating today, got back had a cup of tea then nodded off... Scully,if a new applicant is asked to provide a medical report, which should only be requested if there is a real need based on what the applicant has stated on their form and should not be a blanket policy by the force, and should only be requested after a proper risk assessment, our advice would be for the applicant to ensure that the reasons for that request are properly explained in the letter from the licencing authority, if not they should get back in touch with the licencing authority for a full explanation. Once they have this full explanation they should contact their shooting organisation for more advice, after all the decision by the licencing authority could be challenged. If there is a need for a medical report, then yes I agree there is now the issue of who pays - there is no longer conformation in the HO guidance on this. The police in some cases do not want to pay, the BMA do not want to pay, and i am confident that if the licencing team can show a report is warranted and without one the only option is to refuse to grant, then a legal challenge in court would fail. So to be perfectly honest the applicant in such circumstances who is asked to pay has no choice as far as I can see but to pay. i will ask on Monday when I am back in the office if there is anything else that can be done. I have no figures to hand as to how many of the approximately 30,000 new applicants per year are asked for a medical report prior to grant This is exactly why BASC is working on a solution to this issue as I have said. In my view Durham are incorrect when they state that a renewal is not in the lifetime of a certificate, by definition it has to be, you need to start the renewal process while your current certificate is still valid and not expired, QED its in the lifetime of the certificate. David David David, Why were the HO allowed to change the guidance unchallenged (assuming this was the case) ? As the certificate is for the good of the public then the public should pay shouldnt they ? FYI, I have never been asked for a medical report for either renewal or first grant of SGC or FAC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carman06 Posted January 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 Maybe the police needed to be directed to the term 'contra proferentem' before asking the applicant to pay for a report based on the fact the guidance does not stipulate who is to pay and is therefore ambiguous based on the precedence that it is stated above guidance has existed previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 spanj, the HO are allowed to amend their own guidance,but it was in consultation with others including BASC and ACPO, there were several changes that were very much for the benefit of shooters, but the line in the earlier guidance that clearly said the police had to pay for medical reports was removed, thus making it totally unclear as to should pay. Some licencing authorities are sticking to the old system and they pay, others ask the applicant to pay. Removing this clarification has resulted in a confused situation and an inconsistent licencing process in that context, this is what BASC are trying to correct and get to a system that is fair and equitable for shooters, the status quo is not acceptable, nor is compulsory medical report for all applicant or or renewals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanj Posted January 24, 2015 Report Share Posted January 24, 2015 spanj, the HO are allowed to amend their own guidance,but it was in consultation with others including BASC and ACPO, there were several changes that were very much for the benefit of shooters, but the line in the earlier guidance that clearly said the police had to pay for medical reports was removed, thus making it totally unclear as to should pay. Some licencing authorities are sticking to the old system and they pay, others ask the applicant to pay. Removing this clarification has resulted in a confused situation and an inconsistent licencing process in that context, this is what BASC are trying to correct and get to a system that is fair and equitable for shooters, the status quo is not acceptable, nor is compulsory medical report for all applicant or or renewals. Cheers David but that omission seems to be designed to confuse / open the door for another charge and inconvenience we'll be expected to pay for at some point. Is there any way of getting it readdressed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Yes, for one thing we are working on getting a change on the medical issue and of course the HO guidance will be reviewed again at some point in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 the HO are allowed to amend their own guidance,but it was in consultation with others including BASC and ACPO, there were several changes that were very much for the benefit of shooters, but the line in the earlier guidance that clearly said the police had to pay for medical reports was removed, thus making it totally unclear as to should pay. David, if this was done in consultation with BASC, & others, how come no one noticed the above underlined was omitted.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Has the HO been asked why it omitted to specify who should pay for any GP's reports if required, and if so, what reason was given? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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