Andrew86 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Just looking for some general info or similar experiences here. So 5 of us went to a fairly unknown shoot to us at the start of Jan with the promise of a decent day out. However the bag achieved on the day was far below expectations, over 50% less, with some drives producing no birds at all. Two drives from 8 actually had any birds and even then it was thin on the ground with only three large flushes occuring. More pigeons got fired at than game birds so our shot ratio was miles off. We told him a price we thought reflected the day much to his annoyance. He is now claiming we entered a legally binding contract and must pay the full amount. If we did this it would be putting a value of 65-70 for a phesant??? Has anyone got any advice on this or experienced similar? I have shot a number of estates throughout scotland and the north of england rarely being let down and if i have it has been give or take 10-15 above or below. Thanks for any advice. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rimfire4969 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 What did you book? and what did you shoot? I expect as you say shot ratio might be mentioned, but he must know that you were shooting at pigeon. I have only had one bought day that was similar and we agreed a new price on the day which both parties were happy with. Not sure that dictating a price on the day that he was not happy with was the way to go but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew86 Posted March 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 It was meant to be 150 bird and we got 70 birds off about 8 drives. We went four drives with nothing seen at all. That to me is slightly odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffolkngood Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) It was meant to be 150 bird and we got 70 birds off about 8 drives. We went four drives with nothing seen at all. That to me is slightly odd. That to me is someone selling something he doesn't have? What had you agreed to pay for 150 birds. We're overage/underage mentioned! Edited March 11, 2015 by Suffolkngood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I would say if you entered a contract so did he , to provide what you were led to expect within reason. I would stand my ground and offer to sort it through the courts if he feels the need . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alastair0903 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 The best is when you get pigeon counted in the bag along with jays ! How high was the shot count ? Even if it was high the chance of a 150 bird day after an extremely quiet four drives is slim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I had a similar experience a few years ago. A friend told us the week before the shoot that they were short of birds and we rang up to find out the score only to be told there were plenty of birds and the previous team were poor shots. The first three drives produced 9 birds in total coming over the guns and we had a quiet word with the keeper. We had traveled a fair distance and weren't best pleased , especially as we had phoned and given them the chance to cancel. We agreed a lower price per bird and only paid for what we shot. The eventual bag was about the same as yours and we paid accordingly . I suggest you do the same, or as someone has already said be prepared to go to court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 Just pay him what you thought and let him worry about you naming and shaming him. Tell him you will do so. Then he has to sue you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 How many shots in total were fired at pheasants. Then work out a reasonable kill to cartridge ratio and argue your case from there. If you reached a reasonable kill to cartridge ratio a couple of blank drives does not come into it. If it was me, I'd work out a fair price, then send a cheque for that and let him whistle for the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misser Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 just under half expected bag therefore just under half the agreed price...he can whistle for the rest....if it goes to court theres 4 other witnesses that can vouch for it......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossEM Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Had a 200 bird end of season day in Kent a few years ago on a large commercial pheasant & partridge shoot that my boss had taken a gun on. I was supposed to be paying £250 for back & walking gun duties - however, I had under 20 shootable birds all day. The keeper and regulars could not have been more rude and it was a thoroughly unpleasant experience - the team of 8 guns also didn't have the opportunity to reach the expected bag and demanded a discount, as did I. This put me right off driven shooting - except for the odd invite I only do rough, wildfowling & pigeons now and wouldn't change things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew86 Posted March 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 That to me is someone selling something he doesn't have? What had you agreed to pay for 150 birds. We're overage/underage mentioned! The only overage/underage quoted was the possibilty of going over and if we did then that would be free. Nothing saying to possibly expect half the bag thats for sure. We figured the ratio for the day to be 1/3.5 which is an acceptable level, if not slightly better than some places i have been before. So if he is a knowledgeable keeper he would realise we shot what we got presented. I don't see how he can say it was a legally binding contract either. He will get what we think is reasonable and if he wants to name and shame my shooting group that is fine. Thanks for the info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougall Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 did you have a written contract,did you go via an agent or deal directly with the estate? Estates have a contingency for over/underage..was it discussed as the day progressed?An unpleasant position to be in for all involved,but lets say you agreed £35 per bird to include elevenses/lunch etc I would pay £35 x no of pheasant shot,or whatever the price per bird was at inception as that is your implicit contract(and assuming you dont want to go back).......Assuming of course you did not shoot 500+ cartridges..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suffolkngood Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 The only overage/underage quoted was the possibilty of going over and if we did then that would be free. Nothing saying to possibly expect half the bag thats for sure. We figured the ratio for the day to be 1/3.5 which is an acceptable level, if not slightly better than some places i have been before. So if he is a knowledgeable keeper he would realise we shot what we got presented. I don't see how he can say it was a legally binding contract either. He will get what we think is reasonable and if he wants to name and shame my shooting group that is fine. Thanks for the info The only overage/underage quoted was the possibilty of going over and if we did then that would be free. Nothing saying to possibly expect half the bag thats for sure. We figured the ratio for the day to be 1/3.5 which is an acceptable level, if not slightly better than some places i have been before. So if he is a knowledgeable keeper he would realise we shot what we got presented. I don't see how he can say it was a legally binding contract either. He will get what we think is reasonable and if he wants to name and shame my shooting group that is fine. Thanks for the info The only overage/underage quoted was the possibilty of going over and if we did then that would be free. Nothing saying to possibly expect half the bag thats for sure. We figured the ratio for the day to be 1/3.5 which is an acceptable level, if not slightly better than some places i have been before. So if he is a knowledgeable keeper he would realise we shot what we got presented. I don't see how he can say it was a legally binding contract either. He will get what we think is reasonable and if he wants to name and shame my shooting group that is fine. Thanks for the info Send him cheque for what you believe he should get recorded delivery with a letter saying "in full and final settlement". Job done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterside Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 As a shoot owner myself if that was me I would be more embarrassed than anything selling something which isn't there or unable to deliver. Out of curiosity did any of the guns tip at the end of the day and did you have to pay any beaters money on the day. Pay the guy for what the team shot anything above that your paying for something you didn't receive or something you and the team were unable to achieve. Later days in the season I always say to teams prior to the day if for any reason we don't get to were we want to be we will adjust and just pay for what you shoot. You'll find people will want to come back time after time as being very fair and straight down the line goes a long way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Hi Sorry you had a bad day few things on this First it emphasises the need for a contract Shooting at pigeons messes up your shot count on a pheasant day and could mess up the drive Not defending the shoot Realistically on the second or third blank drive you should have said something and sorted it Personally experience of similar and its not a good thing 😣 You haven't mentioned the weather conditions on your day We now sort a contract before we pay the deposit sort out the price of overages and the point we pay for them they can be more or less than the bird price Cancellation charges / insurance Cost of hospitality this can be based on a %of each bird so in theory a lunch on a 250 bird day compared to 150 bird day on the same shoot can cost you double Vat charges Gratuities Shoot transport This is all done before we committed to the day Hope this will help others To resolve the problem you are having I suggest you speak to him explain the feelings of the team and be prepared to pay for your birds either on the bag or shot count 3 to 1 Hope this helps Just my thoughts All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmydean Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) If there was a contract, that absolutely implies two way - there are no one-way contracts. That means when one side fails to deliver the other is quite within their rights to amend the details of their part in it. You expected 150 you received 70 or some such - assume 150 is 100% work out your percentage and calculate a reasonable cost - deduct something for him not meeting the contract - simple penalty and pay him the rest. If you set it out as an assessment then the logic behind your view will be available if he takes any action. Just make it a reasonable assessment and tell him accept or to take a hike as your cheque is in full and final settlement. I presume you have no reason to go back? Nobody can fault you if you make a reasoned estimate and pay that and, based on your op, thats well less than 50% of the agreed price. If anyone challenges your view tell them, (with good reason) you would have booked an alternative day elsewhere had you known in advance that the bag was likely to be less than half that contracted for. There are far too many cowboys about and whilst certain things cant be guaranteed, a 150 bird day is a contract for precisely that. Edited March 12, 2015 by jimmydean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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