Bullet seating - is this OK and depth repeatability.

[LeadWasp]

Evening everyone.

 

I've just been seating some .25 calibre bullets for a first ever attempt. I have seated them slightly over (ie longer) than the minimum COL stated in the reloading manual. I hope this is OK? They will fit the mag but I don't know my rifles max COL. but they aren't longer than some Rem 120's and they chamber!

For a min COL of 3.100 I have seated an average(!) of 3.110.

For a min COL of 3.200 i have gone for 3.216.

 

This brings me on to the second question. I have a LEE deluxe die set and these final seating depths have come largely from turning the screw adjustment by 'hours' on the clock face so to speak until I achieved a COL of as close above the minimum as I could.

 

It seems the repeatability of seating depths is largely down to how you operate the press - or am I doing something wrong? A first incomplete cycle followed by a 180 degree rotation of the cartridge courtesy of a SPUD1967 youtube tip! Depending on how much I close the press first time tends to alter the final seat.

For example of a target 3.216 it could be 3.210 to 3.223. Am I doing anything wrong and is this tolerance good enough?

 

Thanks folks - I was warned reloading would drive me nuts....I've not started chewing the furniture quite yet!

 

LW

[Dougy]

If you don't have one all ready I suggest you buy a hornady oal guage. Measure your oal to the lands and back off about 10 thou

 

The problem you will find is that bullets are not all exactly the same length. Wereas the ogive will be more exact per same bullet make.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Dougy

[Bewsher500]

brace yourself for a Lee bashing

 

"good enough" for what?

have you shot them yet?

bet you a quid you can't tell the difference between those OALs when on paper!!

 

don't get hung up on it

you will have more variation in pressure, MV and POI from neck tension an operator error than you ever will from charge levels or OAL difference of a few thou!!

 

FWIW I do the double seat/turn method myself

you may have a floating seater pin in the Lee die, not sure which one you have

you can lock it down tight which IMO is an advantage, add a small spacer

 

If possible use the Lee Dead length seater without the roll crimp feature

also check the bullet profile and where the seater pin engages

some BT bullets with engage the depth of the pin rather than be sitting on the curve of the Ogive

[deershooter]

Your shell holder should touch the bottom of the seating die then the length can not vary

 

Deershooter

Edited May 29, 2015 by deershooter

[fruitloop]

Your shell holder should touch the bottom of the seating die then the length can not vary

 

Deershooter

I think you have that mixed up with the resizing dye .

 

you put a case in and wind the seating dye down to touch the neck and then lock it off then you wind the bullet seater out and put the bullet in and just keep turning it in until you get the required length then when that is set you lock it off with the nut.

 

if you wound the seating dye in to the shell holder you will crimp the neck over.

[LeadWasp]

Your shell holder should touch the bottom of the seating die then the length can not vary

 

Deershooter

I adjusted this then 1/4 turn as per instructions then locked it off. The seating depth is controlled by the top nut though isn't it? I preferred the look of the 'competition' micrometer dies which seem to make sense for repeatability more than a random screw. Especially if I am loading several weights. None were available when I looked for .25-06.

 

brace yourself for a Lee bashing

 

"good enough" for what?

have you shot them yet?

bet you a quid you can't tell the difference between those OALs when on paper!!

 

don't get hung up on it

you will have more variation in pressure, MV and POI from neck tension an operator error than you ever will from charge levels or OAL difference of a few thou!!

 

FWIW I do the double seat/turn method myself

you may have a floating seater pin in the Lee die, not sure which one you have

you can lock it down tight which IMO is an advantage, add a small spacer

 

If possible use the Lee Dead length seater without the roll crimp feature

also check the bullet profile and where the seater pin engages

some BT bullets with engage the depth of the pin rather than be sitting on the curve of the Ogive

OK braced ha ha!! 'good enough' etc. - nope I'm fine with that if you say not to worry too much about small changes on OAL's

It is a dead length seater die - will have to look in more detail for a pin - this seems to be a moveable cone or something beneath the depth screw. This COL thing all seems a bit random - ogive OAL seems to make a lot more sense but.......

 

I haven't shot them yet - that's this Sunday. Sparkie has reserved a stretcher and Fruitloop will apply axle grease and veggie burger poultices to any burns!

[fruitloop]

I adjusted this then 1/4 turn as per instructions then locked it off. The seating depth is controlled by the top nut though isn't it? I preferred the look of the 'competition' micrometer dies which seem to make sense for repeatability more than a random screw. Especially if I am loading several weights. None were available when I looked for .25-06.

 

OK braced ha ha!! 'good enough' etc. - nope I'm fine with that if you say not to worry too much about small changes on OAL's

It is a dead length seater die - will have to look in more detail for a pin - this seems to be a moveable cone or something beneath the depth screw. This COL thing all seems a bit random - ogive OAL seems to make a lot more sense but.......

 

I haven't shot them yet - that's this Sunday. Sparkie has reserved a stretcher and Fruitloop will apply axle grease and veggie burger poultices to any burns!

ill see you sunday as its easier to explain ftf as im not that good at spelling so try and ex

plain the best way I know with words I can spell a little and then use the spell chequer lol

 

 

I might make a vist in on sunday

its about time you came to see us lol

[LeadWasp]

If you don't have one all ready I suggest you buy a hornady oal guage. Measure your oal to the lands and back off about 10 thou

 

The problem you will find is that bullets are not all exactly the same length. Wereas the ogive will be more exact per same bullet make.

Hi Dougy - I agree I should've bought one but getting kitted out was starting to get ££.....I'd set a budget and was trying to stick to it religiously. The gauge seemed to be an optional extra...not so sure now

So, I guess the seating dies must push on the ogive otherwise the tip is damaged? Using the ogive length minus the jump also makes sense. Sooooo....is there a tool to measure the ogive length of an assembled cartridge?

[Dougy]

I dont think that all dies actually contact the "Ogive" exactly, but I am almost certain than no seating die uses the actual tip of the bullet as a contact point to seat, for the simple reason varying length, and then i would suppose damage.

 

 

There are some really anal target shooters BR or whatever that will have the seating dies made to fit perfectly a particular bullet, they must measure seating depths to a gnats pubes.

 

I Must say LW, I didnt get an OAL gauge till later on, its no big deal if you don't have one, there are other ways of measuring. and only cast a few £ if that

 

Wait till you start getting into your head about bullet run out, neck thickness and concentricity tolerance, primer pocket uniformers.(which incidentally are important)

Edited May 30, 2015 by Dougy

[LeadWasp]

Hi Dougy - they must be the target shooters I've seen at Bisley in tank tops shuffling uneasily from one foot the the other when a woman walks past!

 

Basically I de-capped, cleaned, neck sized, cleaned and uniformed the primer pocket, chamfered the necks inside and out, deburred the flash hole then cleaned again. Primed, loaded and seated. Then I looked at my watch and realised that if I put that time into working a bit harder I could afford the buy ammunition and still have hours on the clock to be in the pub!

[Bewsher500]

dont use the top screw to adjust seating length, thats is your variable

the pin is loose in the die if you do that and it will tip side to side varying the OAL

 

lock it down tight and use the die in the press to adjust depth

just mark a constant on the press, I have a notch front and centre

sharpie line on the die itself gives me reference point

[fruitloop]

Screw the bullet seating die in until you feel it touch the case mouth. If no crimp is desired, back the die out 1/2 turn. If a crimp is desired, turn the die in 1/4 turn. The bullet must have a crimping groove or it cannot be crimped. Case must be trimmed to same length to provide a uniform crimp. Bullet depth is adjusted by screwing the adjusting screw in or out to suit. Bullets should be seated deep enough to work through the gun’s action. See MaxiMuM overall length on reverse.

 

and that's from lees manual

Edited May 30, 2015 by fruitloop

[reggiegun]

Screw the bullet seating die in until you feel it touch the case mouth. If no crimp is desired, back the die out 1/2 turn. If a crimp is desired, turn the die in 1/4 turn. The bullet must have a crimping groove or it cannot be crimped. Case must be trimmed to same length to provide a uniform crimp. Bullet depth is adjusted by screwing the adjusting screw in or out to suit. Bullets should be seated deep enough to work through the gun’s action. See MaxiMuM overall length on reverse.

 

and that's from lees manual

Fruity, what Bewsher is saying, the play in the pin that is inside the seating adjuster is causing varying oal, if you tighten it up and lock the pin down, then use the die in the press to set oal, you shouldn't get varying oal.

[SPARKIE]

marker pen and empty case I use....

[Redgum]

simple enough to check out the depth to the lands. Get a case, size it and cut a slot in the neck with a junior hacksaw, put a bullet in the case, cycle it and then measure the length, this will be good enough for what you want,don't worry about the O give right now. Personally I would start off with your loading datas oal and go with that for the weight of bullet and powder your using. Each bullet will vary in length, I find SP's vary more than ballist tips as the soft lead gets knocked in the box. I keep the original bullet I use for getting my original oal and use this with a case I have prepared as stated earlier, I use this to check and set the lee bullet seating die each time I do a batch, measuring the oal with a micrometer after pushing the bullet it in the press. In a standard off the shelf hunting barrel there are many more important factors to consider to get an accurate and consistant load so I would not worry too much about a few thou on AOL.

[Bewsher500]

Fruity, what Bewsher is saying, the play in the pin that is inside the seating adjuster is causing varying oal, if you tighten it up and lock the pin down, then use the die in the press to set oal, you shouldn't get varying oal.

 

correct

I only use Lee dies and only use Dead length seaters

in .222, .243, .270, 308 and 300WM

 

lock that pin down

[fruitloop]

The problem with locking the free floting seater is that it may not be straight or not central that will put a cant on the bullet

[snow white]

Hi have rcbs dies and the length keeps moving tried locking the nut down but seating is not consistent have to keep checking it every round.

Edited May 30, 2015 by snow white

[Redgum]

Hi have rcbs dies and the length keeps moving tried locking the nut down but seating is not consistent have to keep checking it every round.

 

The length of a round that matters is from the base to the O give, as mentioned earlier it can seem that the length keeps moving but its actually the real length of individual bullets, buy a box of factory s/p rnds and measure them, they will not be all the same from base to bullet tip.

[snow white]

I have done that there is 5thou difference.was wondering why the dies are not giving me the same reading I only measure to ogive using dial callipers. Was wondering if it is the press a new Lee challenger it is a pain trying to measure every round.

[Paul223]

simple enough to check out the depth to the lands. Get a case, size it and cut a slot in the neck with a junior hacksaw, put a bullet in the case, cycle it and then measure the length, this will be good enough for what you want,don't worry about the O give right now. Personally I would start off with your loading datas oal and go with that for the weight of bullet and powder your using. Each bullet will vary in length, I find SP's vary more than ballist tips as the soft lead gets knocked in the box. I keep the original bullet I use for getting my original oal and use this with a case I have prepared as stated earlier, I use this to check and set the lee bullet seating die each time I do a batch, measuring the oal with a micrometer after pushing the bullet it in the press. In a standard off the shelf hunting barrel there are many more important factors to consider to get an accurate and consistant load so I would not worry too much about a few thou on AOL.

This is pretty much the same as my method

 

And I'm with leaving the seater to free float with the case holder tight to the base of the seating die, check every 5th for length

[Redgum]

Consider this. The seating die presses on the bullet at one location, the meplat is at another, an ogive measurment tool may use a third point and your 'mate' tells you a fourth. Oh and the rifling leade contacts at a fifth.

 

Hence why online discussions on this matter are often laughable.

 

.......so unless you are shooting knats of cowpats at 400yds or expecting to make the Olympic rifle shooting team don't loose to much sleep over this. We all get a bit anal when we start reloading, and according to a documentary I saw on tv the other night we all have measurable degrees of OCD.

[maxwell]

it depends what level you are happy with, I always measure from the ogive as I find a variance of around 0.010" in box to the tip, especially Sierra, this can be significant if you have a fussy chamber/ load of 0.005". I also anneal every second firing (Lapua) as 3rd fired will give noticeable difference in seating resistance, the difference in neck tension plays havoc not only with your OAL but more importantly wiith accuracy.

[LeadWasp]

Thanks to everyone for their input - and to Sparkie, Dougy and Fruitloop yesterday for their face to face advice at Garlands. Some good tips picked up there. I was dead chuffed with the groups for 110gr Hornady's.

It seems bonkers to state a tip-based OAL in a reloading manual for obvious reasons and those mentioned above - why do they do it?

 

From a safety/pressure perspective do I need to worry about seating a bullet too deeply?

Consider this. The seating die presses on the bullet at one location, the meplat is at another, an ogive measurment tool may use a third point and your 'mate' tells you a fourth. Oh and the rifling leade contacts at a fifth.

Hence why online discussions on this matter are often laughable.

Hi Chris - what is your suggestion? Heh Heh......and did you go to the Black Fingernail afterall?

Edited June 1, 2015 by LeadWasp

[Dougy]

Black eagle in Edingale top of garlands. The Swan used to be a proper ale house pub, that was until the brewery's got greedy with rent. Now its a food pub as I mentioned "ding cuisine" cooked by burger flippers. I recon fruitloop could do better.in his burger van.