True cylinder choke question

[FalconFN]

Thanks, I discovered that post yesterday, it was very encouraging to see.

 

I'm picking the gun up (and a Spanish sxs) later in the month so I will have a better idea how it performs then.

[DanWalker]

Gough Thomas's maxim was "the best degree of choke for filling the game bag and avoiding the displeasure of the cook is always the least degree consistent with the class of sport required"

 

He went on to explain that 'provided there is a sufficiently close pattern to ensure a kill at the average range at which birds are being taken, it is better that any surplus pellets available should be devoted to increasing the spread rather than increasing the already adequate density. Thereby hits are scored which might otherwise be misses.'

[rjimmer]

What on earth are you smoking? 70+ metres?? I've hit?! Sorry but that is a ridiculous post...... Firstly I would wager a great deal of money you can't do that consistently even with full choke, and to shoot at stuff 70 metres, not yards! ....... With cylinder choke is unethical and unsporting whatever the quarry, 4's at that range through that combo, it won't have the pattern, sorry but posts like that are ridiculous....... Go and learn what a gun is capable of. Sorry to hi jack the thread

+1

[rjimmer]

But not at 70 yards , if that was the case why do guns come with a selection of chokes ?

Accepted standard is the amount of pellets in a 30 " circle at the given range , are you trying to tell me IMP CYL will put more in that area than full ?

+1. The boring of a gun is defined by the pattern that it throws, not the measurements of the barrel.

[Redditch]

You don't put more pellets in with imp cyl than full, what you do is put a more even pattern (the tighter the choke, the more pellets in the centre of the pattern)

By using the same amount of pellets, with a larger size (36gr 4, 34gr 5, 32gr 6, and 30 gr 7 all have approximately the same amount of pellets to a cartridge). The larger the size shot, the LESS pellets needed for a kill, and hence a more open pattern gives you a better kill chance if that pattern is evenly spread !!

And imp cyl gives by far the best overall "evenly spread" patterns available.

Using no4 shot, you need about half the pellets you need with no6 shot to get a kill, so you can have half the amount in the pattern, but being more evenly spread, you have less holes n the pattern, so a greater chance of a kill.

And the extra weight, means they retain energy further down field, whereas if you have a lighter pellet, you need MORE pellets to make up for diminishing energy while the pattern is dispersing too.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Redditch

[Stonepark]

Generally for any given load and mass produced gun, pattern density decreases at a decreasing rate for increasing range. Similarly, pattern spread increases at an increasing rate for increasing range.

Neither of these take into account pattern quality nor consistency.

You can kill geese with 32g of 4 to 40 yards with cylinder. To get to 55 yards with same pattern density and pellet energy, you need full choke, and 50g of 2's.

Similarly, 32g of 7 will kill pheasant to 40 yards in cyl, yet for 55 yards you need 50g of 5's with full choke.

If your shooting is 95% 40 yards and under. Cyl and imp cyl, smallish shot and lightish loads is the way to go.

If you are shooting 40 to 55 yards, you require larger pellets, loads and tighter chokes but for an average 12 bore, even when stepping up to the standard max, you are only getting another 15 yards or so for significant increases in cost, recoil and accuracy requirements.

This is not to say there are no exceptions, (Digweed et al with matched patterned guns and 10000's of rounds practice) but the average shooter is like the average driver (buying a large 4 seat car to seat 4 with 4 large suitcases once a month when most journies are single occupant, no luggage) where most choose chokes, loads and shot size for the 5% of shots we make rather than the 95% we actually use it for and then it becomes standardised (it's what my grandfather used....etc) and no one questions the logic.

My 12 o/u (when not using my preferred 410) is imp cyl and imp cyl shooting 28g 7.5. Or 32g 6.5 for pigeon and pheasants respectively and anything inside 40 yards drops cleanly if i am on target.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Stonepark

[Underdog]

Gough Thomas's maxim was "the best degree of choke for filling the game bag and avoiding the displeasure of the cook is always the least degree consistent with the class of sport required"

 

He went on to explain that 'provided there is a sufficiently close pattern to ensure a kill at the average range at which birds are being taken, it is better that any surplus pellets available should be devoted to increasing the spread rather than increasing the already adequate density. Thereby hits are scored which might otherwise be misses.'

Absolutely correct.

[Redditch]

Generally, people stick to one cartridge, and for more range to compensate for pattern spread and loss of penetration, increase the choke.

My solution is instead to use a larger weight of shot with a larger size of shot, so requiring less pellets for the kill, but still getting an acceptable pattern.

Each increase in choke size will only give you (standard factory chokes) about 5 metres per stage of increase. And while doing that, it's concentrating the mass of shot bang in the centre 10 inch, with very little in the surrounding area of the 30"

Imp cyl gives the smoothest patters of all standard chokes (due to less deformation) so less holes in the pattern. Yes, there won't be as many pellets in the pattern as a full choke at a given range, BUT, what there is, will be evenly spread in the 30", and using that heavier shot, will kill with half the pellets normally required.

So basically, you can get away with half the pellets in your pattern, so long as the pattern is good, and thus increase your killing spread and range, and heavier pellets hold power better down range too.

Using a lighter pellet would mean you actually need MORE pellets to strike at distance, as they lose penetrating power quicker.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Redditch

[motty]

Redditch, I am speechless.

[motty]

As for the op getting a gun with true cylinder in both barrels - I personally wouldn't consider it for serious pigeon shooting.

[wymberley]

Roughly the same shot count per cartridge. 30gr 7, 32gr 6, 34 gr 5, and 36gr 4

 

360, 305, 260 and 215 respectively. Yep, rough - very rough.

 

Interpreting some of what has been said on this thread appears to raise the old question of how does a shotgun kill. Do you hit a vital organ or two, or to you hit the target in the vulnerable (as opposed to vital) area with sufficient force such that the trauma induced is sufficient to cause one or more vital organs to shut down.

[Stonepark]

Generally, people stick to one cartridge, and for more range to compensate for pattern spread and loss of penetration, increase the choke.

My solution is instead to use a larger weight of shot with a larger size of shot, so requiring less pellets for the kill, but still getting an acceptable pattern.

Each increase in choke size will only give you (standard factory chokes) about 5 metres per stage of increase. And while doing that, it's concentrating the mass of shot bang in the centre 10 inch, with very little in the surrounding area of the 30"

Imp cyl gives the smoothest patters of all standard chokes (due to less deformation) so less holes in the pattern. Yes, there won't be as many pellets in the pattern as a full choke at a given range, BUT, what there is, will be evenly spread in the 30", and using that heavier shot, will kill with half the pellets normally required.

So basically, you can get away with half the pellets in your pattern, so long as the pattern is good, and thus increase your killing spread and range,mad heavier pellets hold power better down range too.

Using a lighter pellet would mean you actually need MORE pellets to strike at distance, as they lose penetrating power quicker.

 

This is the line of thought a lot of Americans have gone down, especially with steel and any number of Youtube video's clearly demonstrate its effectiveness or rather lack thereof due to the high number of birds that need a swatter round or necks wrung as whilst the individual large shot may incapacitate them and bring them down it does not reliably kill cleanly.

 

My logic is that whilst individual pellet energy is important to ensure adequate penetration, it is pattern that kills by getting enough pellets into vital areas to cause cranial, spinal, heart. lung or arterial trauma each and every time.

[Stonepark]

As for the op getting a gun with true cylinder in both barrels - I personally wouldn't consider it for serious pigeon shooting.

 

Need to get hold of gun first and pattern it, but I doubt it will be true cyl and cyl unless someone has already worked on the chokes, most likely it will pattern skeet and skeet, imp and imp or imp and 1/4 as very few true cyl and cyl guns produced.

[Redditch]

If it's American "cyl" like on beretta, then it's actually our imp cyl. Add a plastic wad and your are then shooting at least 1/4 choke, probably more.

[Redditch]

This is the line of thought a lot of Americans have gone down, especially with steel and any number of Youtube video's clearly demonstrate its effectiveness or rather lack thereof due to the high number of birds that need a swatter round or necks wrung as whilst the individual large shot may incapacitate them and bring them down it does not reliably kill cleanly.

 

My logic is that whilst individual pellet energy is important to ensure adequate penetration, it is pattern that kills by getting enough pellets into vital areas to cause cranial, spinal, heart. lung or arterial trauma each and every time.

Most of the Americans I know, actually shoot 7,8, or even 9 shot for pigeon (they call them dove, as they exterminated their passenger pigeon through over shooting) and corvids (which seem to be two types of their crow), but in standard weight cartridges, which would explain the priced birds. I very rarely get a pricked bird. Edited October 10, 2015 by Redditch

[Redditch]

A shotgun can kill in two ways.

One) a few large pellets with very high striking power, causing large damage on their way through, or Two) multiple lighter pellets causing an accumulation of minor injuries, that in their total cause shock and trauma, the shock generally being the major cause of death in that case.

Both are effective in their own ways, but if you want to eat what you shoot, then it's advisable to have as few pellets as humanly possible to ensure a good kill.

90% of what I shoot is corvids (rather than the prevalence of pigeon in England, we have the opposite, more corvids than pigeon).

Light pellets are fine for pigeon, and 6 or 7 shot will kill efficiently.

I found though that for corvids here in my area (next to the Atlantic) the corvids have massively thick plumage, and with 6 or 7 shot, I was getting masses of pricked birds, even using tighter chokes, so I swapped to heavier shot in a heavier load, and the problem was cured

[Underdog]

As for the op getting a gun with true cylinder in both barrels - I personally wouldn't consider it for serious pigeon shooting.

Why not bud, this one works?

[motty]

During a busy day on the pigeons, I would expect to take on several pigeons at over 50 yards. I simply wouldn't be comfortable with really open chokes.

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[fenboy]

Why not bud, this one works?<script pagespeed_no_defer="">//=d.offsetWidth&&0>=d.offsetHeight)a=!1;else{c=d.getBoundingClientRect();var f=document.body;a=c.top+("pageYOffset"in window?window.pageYOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollTop);c=c.left+("pageXOffset"in window?window.pageXOffset:(document.documentElement||f.parentNode||f).scrollLeft);f=a.toString()+","+c;b.b.hasOwnProperty(f)?a=!1:(b.b[f]=!0,a=a<=b.e.height&&c<=b.e.width)}a&&(b.a.push(e),b.d[e]=!0)};p.prototype.checkImageForCriticality=function(b){b.getBoundingClientRect&&q(this,b)};h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkImageForCriticality",function(b){n.checkImageForCriticality(b)});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.checkCriticalImages",function(){r(n)});var r=function(b){b.b={};for(var d=["IMG","INPUT"],a=[],c=0;c=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e)}b.g&&(e="&rd="+encodeURIComponent(JSON.stringify(s())),131072>=a.length+e.length&&(a+=e),d=!0);t=a;if(d){c=b.f;b=b.h;var f;if(window.XMLHttpRequest)f=new XMLHttpRequest;else if(window.ActiveXObject)try{f=new ActiveXObject("Msxml2.XMLHTTP")}catch(k){try{f=new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP")}catch(u){}}f&&(f.open("POST",c+(-1==c.indexOf("?")?"?":"&")+"url="+encodeURIComponent(b)),f.setRequestHeader("Content-Type","application/x-www-form-urlencoded"),f.send(a))}}},s=function(){var b={},d=document.getElementsByTagName("IMG");if(0==d.length)return{};var a=d[0];if(!("naturalWidth"in a&&"naturalHeight"in a))return{};for(var c=0;a=d[c];++c){var e=a.getAttribute("pagespeed_url_hash");e&&(!(e in b)&&0=b[e].k&&a.height>=b[e].j)&&(b[e]={rw:a.width,rh:a.height,ow:a.naturalWidth,oh:a.naturalHeight})}return b},t="";h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.getBeaconData",function(){return t});h("pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run",function(b,d,a,c,e,f){var k=new p(b,d,a,e,f);n=k;c&&m(function(){window.setTimeout(function(){r(k)},0)})});})();pagespeed.CriticalImages.Run('/mod_pagespeed_beacon','http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?s=e07a7414db0044b5a77dc8720bfc2727&app=forums&module=ajax§ion=topics&do=quote&t=322229&p=2919564&md5check=99662395f2ecbb1f9c93e86fed3ef8e8&isRte=1,l8PuqRhht8,true,false,8HkjOSehLF0');//]]></script> &&0

But would it work consistently flighting birds at 50 yards or more UD ?

I am like motty I would not choose a gun choked like that for all round pigeon shooting , fine for hide work over the decoys but as someone who likes "take a few on " then I would find it too restrictive

[Underdog]

But would it work consistently flighting birds at 50 yards or more UD ?

I am like motty I would not choose a gun choked like that for all round pigeon shooting , fine for hide work over the decoys but as someone who likes "take a few on " then I would find it too restrictive

Fair point, but what you may consider restrictive I call a challenge.

I no longer seek high numbers killed but preference a sporting challenge now.

This bias my view somewhat and I understand anyone wanting increased range however I still think the op will do OK.

[fenboy]

Fair point, but what you may consider restrictive I call a challenge.

I no longer seek high numbers killed but preference a sporting challenge now.

This bias my view somewhat and I understand anyone wanting increased range however I still think the op will do OK.

I am sure it suits the type of shooting you do very well , its also a sporing challenge trying to shoot 50 yard pigeon with a 3/4 or full though !!!!

[Underdog]

I am sure it suits the type of shooting you do very well , its also a sporing challenge trying to shoot 50 yard pigeon with a 3/4 or full though !!!!

Yes sorry, I meant getting one self closer to the quarry

[fenboy]

Yes sorry, I meant getting one self closer to the quarry

Yep I knew what you meant

[FalconFN]

Fenboy and Motty, I respect your knowledge and input, but I'm not a 'serious' pigeon shooter, I'm not looking for big bags or long range 'sporting' shots, I just like a morning/afternoon our with the dog and a bagful for the freezer. This gun is a rough and ready pigeon gun that will be cheaper to feed than my 16g hammer gun, and not a perfect all rounder. Plus its cheap.

[fenboy]

Fenboy and Motty, I respect your knowledge and input, but I'm not a 'serious' pigeon shooter, I'm not looking for big bags or long range 'sporting' shots, I just like a morning/afternoon our with the dog and a bagful for the freezer. This gun is a rough and ready pigeon gun that will be cheaper to feed than my 16g hammer gun, and not a perfect all rounder. Plus its cheap.

 

I am sure the gun would suit you needs fine , I am sorry we dragged your post of topic , but when people start claiming consistent kills at 70 yards I had to give my 10p worth .

For 90% of the time your gun will be fine.