Plastic Recipes, Fibre Wads? Total Confusion!

[neutron619]

Hello Chaps,

 

I've been reading around this evening about substituting fibre wads for the plastic wads given in various cartridge recipes. I've been grateful to receive some advice from Underdog on the subject via PM (prompting other investigations not covered by this post) and I've also found the following post, which contained some helpful information:

 

http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/186023-reloading-using-fibre-wads/

 

Whilst all the old posts and input from Underdog has been useful, the thing I haven't quite worked out is the answer to the question "how does one know what length of fibre wad to buy to create a properly crimped shell of the appropriate length?"

 

I look at places like http://www.claygame.co.uk/and see the range of products they have there. Obviously there are a lot of components you can put together with a lot of other components to make shells.

 

I want to create two loads:

• a 28g/#6 load for my 16 gauge
• a 36g/#5 load for my 12 gauge

both in Cheddite 70mm cases appropriate to gauge, with Hodgdon Longshot powder which I can get locally.

 

I understand that the total length of all the components making up the shell has to be correct otherwise the shell will not crimp properly and the appropriate pressure to propel the shot will not be generated.

 

Therefore, how do I know the required length and what amount of that length should be taken up by the wad?

 

Looking at the Clay & Game website, I could buy 13mm or 20mm capped fibre wads for 16ga loads. Nowhere though, does it say that "the 13mm wad will be suitable for shells with XX grams of shot". Can anyone fill in this missing piece of information for me, for the loads I've listed above? Likewise, there are four options for the 12 gauge - which one should I choose?

 

Perhaps it's my background in rifle reloading that's making it so hard for me to understand all of the concepts involved in shotgun reloading. Rifle cartridge reloading seems much more exact and can be described by simple rules - I can't seem to acquire any equivalent understanding with shot shell reloading.

 

I've gone through the shot shell reloading chapter of The ABC's of Reloading so many times it's ridiculous, but I still can't seem to grasp any clear rules where one changes a component or powder charge and the result is X, as is the case in rifle reloading. Why is there no reference value that says "the total length of components for a 70mm 16 gauge shell should be YY milimetres" which then tells you that if your shot takes up AA millimetres and your powder takes up BB millimetres then you need a wad of CC millimetres length to make up the length YY for a proper crimp?

 

You see where I'm coming from by now, I hope.

 

Anyway - I'm perfectly prepared to forgo all this understanding if someone can tell me how to put together the above loads. I can't shoot plastic wads on my permissions and I don't want to anyway since I consider it littering, so if someone can give me recipes for the above loads which use a fibre wad and pushes the respective quantities of shot out of 70mm shells in those gauges at somewhere in the region of 1250-1350fps (obviously depending on the gun), I'd be most grateful.

 

Alternatively, if someone can help me change my perspective on all this to give me a hint as to how to go away and understand it for myself, I'd obviously owe them a large debt of gratitude.

 

If it makes any difference, I'll be using a Lee Load-All II in both 12 and 16 gauges to load these shells and I also have on order the Cheddite reloading manual, all expected to arrive shortly. Now I just need to identify the right components to use - but I already know that the Cheddite manual duplicates the publically-available Hodgdon data, meaning that all the combinations listed are for plastic wads, not fibre - hence my post today.

 

With many thanks in advance for any guidance any of you experienced reloaders can give,

 

Adam.

Edited December 2, 2015 by neutron619

[rbrowning2]

You are not making life easy for yourself and this is not going to be an easy task for several reasons;

 

By using an American powder you are unlikely to find any load data for fibre wad cartridges as they just do not use fibre in the states and hence no need to publish data.

 

16gauge is very unpopular in the uk and hence again little load data available.

 

The length of wad depends on type of powder used and size of shot and case type.

 

I would find a plastic wad powder dose for the powder and use that by buying fibre wads of various lengths and assemble cartridges by trial and error. One or more wads may be needed and you may need to cut a wad until you have the correct length of wad.

 

Then you will need the services of the proof house to check they are safe, this may require a few attempts to reach the velocity you are looking for.

 

Me I keep it simple these days load nice little 28ga with plastic or fibre using easy to obtain EU powder and wads.

Edited December 2, 2015 by rbrowning2

[neutron619]

You are not making life easy for yourself and this is not going to be an easy task for several reasons;

 

By using an American powder you are unlikely to find any load data for fibre wad cartridges as they just do not use fibre in the states and hence no need to publish data.

 

16gauge is very unpopular in the uk and hence again little load data available.

 

The length of wad depends on type of powder used and size of shot and case type.

 

I would find a plastic wad powder dose for the powder and use that by buying fibre wads of various lengths and assemble cartridges by trial and error. One or more wads may be needed and you may need to cut a wad until you have the correct length of wad.

 

Then you will need the services of the proof house to check they are safe, this may require a few attempts to reach the velocity you are looking for.

 

Me I keep it simple these days load nice little 28ga with plastic or fibre using easy to obtain EU powder and wads.

 

Ok, so let's say I can change the powder and use something else - where would you start?

 

I don't need to use Longshot - I'm just starting out here, so it's not as if I have huge stocks to use up. I am also not looking for absolute maximum velocity, although that is why people pointed me at Longshot in the first place - they said it would be versatile enough to do everything I wanted to from fast to slow loads, simply by varying the powder charge, so I could find something that patterned well and consistently from a broad range of charges.

 

However, as I implied above, I want moderate loads that pattern well - not super-fast loads that shred quarry at 25 yards and damage their pellets to such an extent that they're useless by 40 yards, so there's no necessity to use any particular powder, provided I can get 1250-1300fps out of it with both of those loads.

 

If I don't use a Hodgdon powder, then it is slightly irritating that I've spent £18 including postage on a manual for powders that appear not be the best option, but I suppose it might contain something useful if I suddenly start shooting clays with plastic wads and the guns with which I'm intending to use these cartridges.

 

On the other hand, I like a challenge and I've no objection to paying the proof house if it's a question of establishing safety - that's what they're there for. If it can be done, it might be interesting to try - can you rate my chances of success?

[rbrowning2]

Their is far more data available for fibre wads with EU powder. The availability which is either dependant on where in the uk you live to allow you to collect powder or if you are happy paying the high cost of delivery.

 

Then the 12ga 36gm can be loaded with the likes of psb2 or A0 and data should be available from the supplier.

 

For 16ga 28ga will probably have a wider choice of EU powders and again the supplier one would hope should be able to help you.

 

Chance of success 100 % with the support of the retailer or PW members some of whole may already load 16ga fibre.

 

Rb

Edited December 2, 2015 by rbrowning2

[Vince Green]

The alliant loading tables do include fibre wads

[rbrowning2]

The alliant loading tables do include fibre wads

Oh good news thanks, I did not check, as EU powders are so much cheaper then the American so do not bother with them and my lyman reloading books are very old now.

 

Rb.

[Donkey]

Have a look here

http://####.co.uk/

Loads are published here and John sells all the components

[Underdog]

Dude get an empty case, fill it with the dose of powder you will start at. Put a thin card on it.

Now put the dose of shot on top.

Measure what is left to just above where the plastic was rolled over. That will give you a good idea of nitro card and fibre wad length needed.

 

U.

Of course if you had a real gun that used flint you would have none of these issues ;-)

Edited December 3, 2015 by Underdog

[Lord Geordie]

If simply replicating a plastic wad cart but wanting the wad in fibre, measure from the underside of the plas wad seal to the bottom of the cup! Remove 4mm for your nitro card and bingo!

[Lord Geordie]

Just to add! Some pressure may be lost using nitro cards, some prefer obturators to the card as they offer a better seal!

 

Another thing worth mentioning I the weight variance between fibre and plaswad. Fibre may be considerably heavier that the plastic counterpart, therefor perhaps you should check the difference in weight and adjust the powder accordingly! This is why recipes are specific, just a thought! If loading fibre I tend to stick with nitro cards and then 21mm fibre for a 1oz load. I don't normally use anything other than 28 for the majority of my shooting! Some 30g 4s for fox but that's it! They are plaswad.

[Underdog]

Just to add! Some pressure may be lost using nitro cards, some prefer obturators to the card as they offer a better seal!

 

Another thing worth mentioning I the weight variance between fibre and plaswad. Fibre may be considerably heavier that the plastic counterpart, therefor perhaps you should check the difference in weight and adjust the powder accordingly! This is why recipes are specific, just a thought! If loading fibre I tend to stick with nitro cards and then 21mm fibre for a 1oz load. I don't normally use anything other than 28 for the majority of my shooting! Some 30g 4s for fox but that's it! They are plaswad.

You may find the weight variance of volumetric measuring of shot out weigh any differences in fibre and plastic wadding!

[islandgun]

just looked on the hodgdon website they are noy giving a 16 bore load using cheddite and longshot, plenty for the 12bore though

[neutron619]

Chaps,

 

Thank you to you all for providing your input. I've spent some of today, between working, scouring the internet for loading data and I think that if I now don't have an exact plan for each of the two loads I mentioned, your tips and comments have been enough to make me sure that when I do sit down and have a proper think about it that I've got a good chance of creating something workable and safe.

 

I've been looking, as rbrowning2 suggested above, at the Vectan A1 and A0 powders for the 16 and 12 gauge loads respectively. It looks like I can get both of those powders locally and I have at least one piece of loading data for each prospective load, which matches my requirements closely enough and utilizes those powders. Assuming I can find the right cases, primers and wads, that gives me a reasonable chance of avoiding having to invent something to get what I want.

 

I will continue to look for more data as the 16 gauge load is a little on the slow side compared to my spec, but the path of least resistance does seem to be avoiding the Hodgdon Longshot powder and going with a European powder instead.

 

No doubt I'll make further posts on the subject as I work it all out.

 

Thank you all again for your input (and particularly to Underdog for his patience with me!).

[hawkeye]

If simply replicating a plastic wad cart but wanting the wad in fibre, measure from the underside of the plas wad seal to the bottom of the cup! Remove 4mm for your nitro card and bingo!

 

thats all i did not a problem....