Dead-Eyed Duck Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I have various calibres of percussion muzzle loaders, and want to know the options for when using these for wildfowling. I assume that using steel shot would be out due to the pressures involved? If so what are the alternatives - bismuth? If bismuth is an option, then what are the approximate rules for the powder:shot ratio. Would this be as per when using lead shot - roughly equal measures by volume of black powder to shot? Finally, if bismuth shot is an option then does anyone have an idea as to where this could be sourced, and if so an approximate cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Reluctance to use steel shot in muzzleloaders is nowt to do with pressures. It is the low velocity that makes steel shot a 25yard option pretty much, regardless of guage! I have used steel but probably won't again! If you get some bismuth just put a bit more shot in. If you have enough of a load it should go through a tuna can! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakin stevens Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 clay and game sell bismuth shot, not sure how much it is, could be £70 a kilo? I would buffer the shot in a normal big bore breach loader and use a wrap, obviously it's different in a muzzle loader. The clay and game bismuth is very brittle best bismuth I've used in big bore guns is the American stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 They use to sell tin shot. I have seen that used on ducks years ago and it was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatFreddysCat Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 You could try pure copper shot. Softer than steel and 14% heavier. 1/3rd the price of bismuth. Including vat and postage from Italy it costs £61 for 2.5kg. link below http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_191&products_id=2406 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) There are people who will tell you that muzzle loaders are exempt because the wording of the law refers to ammunition loaded with lead shot. I don't know, I don't want to get into that one having not read the small print but I cant imagine there are enough muzzle loaders out there to make much difference. Edited December 21, 2015 by Vince Green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subsonicnat Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Bismuth::: Thats the Problem I have,, 1/4 pound a time is very expensive: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Bismuth::: Thats the Problem I have,, 1/4 pound a time is very expensive: £5 a shot Simple solution hang it on the wall and use a 12 bore Drive to Scotland and shoot lead Look at it another way 1/4 lb of shot at a free bird for a fiver Or 50 p 12 bore shot at a driven pheasant £32 Sorry if this seems harsh Sport has a price and sometimes if you want to do it it costs All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 There are people who will tell you that muzzle loaders are exempt because the wording of the law refers to ammunition loaded with lead shot. I don't know, I don't want to get into that one having not read the small print but I cant imagine there are enough muzzle loaders out there to make much difference. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Reluctance to use steel shot in muzzleloaders is nowt to do with pressures. It is the low velocity that makes steel shot a 25yard option pretty much, regardless of guage! I have used steel but probably won't again! If you get some bismuth just put a bit more shot in. If you have enough of a load it should go through a tuna can! Have used steel in my 8ga muzzleloader like you say pressure is not the problem but speed is lower, I tried several routes but settled on pyrodex RS load and T or F steel for geese and BB for ducks, patterns were good with the bigger shot and worked just fine. Olive oil is your friend and i modified 10ga Multi mettasl wads with a mandrel and a little heat, the low pressures helped with the slioght thining of the wadding and i never saw any pin holes even with the big steel shot. Copper sounds a good idea, but not tried any yet in the muzzleloader, but the copper is working great on geese and duck in normal modern shotguns and A 48gram 10ga load of 4.2mm @1570 FPS Nicknamed the Terrington terror on account of this loads first goose location and through the terror .720 choke has me thinking why i ever mauned leads passing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Tony, how far distance wise did the steel you used work? U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Have used steel in my 8ga muzzleloader like you say pressure is not the problem but speed is lower, I tried several routes but settled on pyrodex RS load and T or F steel for geese and BB for ducks, patterns were good with the bigger shot and worked just fine. Olive oil is your friend and i modified 10ga Multi mettasl wads with a mandrel and a little heat, the low pressures helped with the slioght thining of the wadding and i never saw any pin holes even with the big steel shot. Copper sounds a good idea, but not tried any yet in the muzzleloader, but the copper is working great on geese and duck in normal modern shotguns and A 48gram 10ga load of 4.2mm @1570 FPS Nicknamed the Terrington terror on account of this loads first goose location and through the terror .720 choke has me thinking why i ever mauned leads passing. That copper load sounds like it would be fairly high pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TONY R Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Underdog,.. Kills to a decent enough range 40 or so yards the big shot has a fair FTlbs and decent p[attern in the 8 even at the low vellocity.Motty. Its probably technicaly over pressure, but no more than any other decent reload of steel shot is by way of example the ubiquitous 44 gram csb 0 load at similar speed of the popular modified( sans white box winchester primer) RSI ten load used the world over. The copper shot being half as hard as steel shot, the very different (more traditional ) wadding and my powder choice keeps pressure acceptable if not exactly inside CIP guidance. Country of residence has no reflection on safety, the fact the uk is signed up to CIP is without doubt, but in my choosing to folow SAMI rules i feel i am not radical just a way of staying efficient humane and safe with the shot types approved in law here. I use chokes too which are way off anything the CIP would ever recomend . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 That is a good way! I need an 8g😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Underdog,.. Kills to a decent enough range 40 or so yards the big shot has a fair FTlbs and decent p[attern in the 8 even at the low vellocity. Motty. Its probably technicaly over pressure, but no more than any other decent reload of steel shot is by way of example the ubiquitous 44 gram csb 0 load at similar speed of the popular modified( sans white box winchester primer) RSI ten load used the world over. The copper shot being half as hard as steel shot, the very different (more traditional ) wadding and my powder choice keeps pressure acceptable if not exactly inside CIP guidance. Country of residence has no reflection on safety, the fact the uk is signed up to CIP is without doubt, but in my choosing to folow SAMI rules i feel i am not radical just a way of staying efficient humane and safe with the shot types approved in law here. I use chokes too which are way off anything the CIP would ever recomend . Surely shot hardness has nothing to do with pressure. I am not a stranger to fast steel and big pellets through tight chokes. Your load just sounded a little 'thumpy'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farma Geddon Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 The harder the shot , the less it deforms on setback and the less energy it uses up and the more pressure it creates. It must be complicated though , because Hevi Shot appears to create less pressures than steel shot . For what it is worth ,I think steel shot creates more of a bung , expands sideways , increasing pressures also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 The harder the shot , the less it deforms on setback and the less energy it uses up and the more pressure it creates. It must be complicated though , because Hevi Shot appears to create less pressures than steel shot . For what it is worth ,I think steel shot creates more of a bung , expands sideways , increasing pressures also. Think you have that the wrong way around! The more set back as you call it or deformation at the start of acceleration there is,that will raise pressures over a substance that does not deform in shot guns. The g force of the forward portion of lead against the gasses is crushing the rear most pellets, they are more stationary momentarily than a harder substance. Any delay in acceleration will increase pressure relatively. Is it dodgy, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farma Geddon Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Think you have that the wrong way around! The more set back as you call it or deformation at the start of acceleration there is,that will raise pressures over a substance that does not deform in shot guns. The g force of the forward portion of lead against the gasses is crushing the rear most pellets, they are more stationary momentarily than a harder substance. Any delay in acceleration will increase pressure relatively. Is it dodgy, no. Are you suggesting lead shot therefore gives higher pressures than steel shot? The deformation of lead on setback uses up energy and reduces pressure. However , this is what I was told by a clever bloke , perhaps he isn't that clever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Guys, Merry Christmas. We should investigate this in a test barrel. Not heresay. Or heresy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farma Geddon Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Guys, Merry Christmas. We should investigate this in a test barrel. Not heresay. Or heresy. We should do that , but it is known that steel gives higher pressures than lead and Hevi Shot , which is harder than steel , appears to give lower pressures than steel. It would be nice to know why. I havey theories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 We should do that , but it is known that steel gives higher pressures than lead and Hevi Shot , which is harder than steel , appears to give lower pressures than steel. It would be nice to know why. I havey theories I have theories too. I'm testing stuff at the mo. I will publish when the test certificate and data arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) I understood steel loads produce more pressure as manufacturers want to increase velocity to aid lethality over a useful range. But to help recoil they like slower powders. The hardness of steel means that the forward pellets will start to move sooner than lead ones. Anything that can resist moving against an applied force will raise pressure from the force. All be it a billionth of a second maybe but non the less. Just because a shot load is made of harder substance I fail to see how that alone could raise pressures beyond the regulation or control of propellent manufaturers. I was told once one could not use bog paper as a wad so I filmed it being done. If someone wants to send me some steel shot and a chrony I will film a test. Edited December 25, 2015 by Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farma Geddon Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) I understood steel loads produce more pressure as manufacturers want to increase velocity to aid lethality over a useful range. But to help recoil they like slower powders. The hardness of steel means that the forward pellets will start to move sooner than lead ones. Anything that can resist moving against an applied force will raise pressure from the force. All be it a billionth of a second maybe but non the less. Just because a shot load is made of harder substance I fail to see how that alone could raise pressures beyond the regulation or control of propellent manufaturers. I was told once one could not use bog paper as a wad so I filmed it being done. If someone wants to send me some steel shot and a chrony I will film a test. With all due respect ,there is no need for a lead vs steel pressure test .It is widely known that steel shot produces much higher pressures than lead shot. Any reloader should know this. When steel shot first became available for reloaders , we were warned not to substitute data from lead to steel because of this. Your bog roll test does not inspire confidence in me to disregard this advice. Merry Christmas Edited December 25, 2015 by Farma Geddon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Hi Sorry I'm a bit lost here :-( This is for a muzzle loader All the steel loads I can find are for nitro powder The op used pyrodex Most muzzle loaders are black powder So are the pressures being talked about for which powder or a substitute ? Sorry if I'm being a bit thick here All the best Of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Another factor is the volume of the payload with steel. Taking most the room up in a cartridge leaves little or no room for a compression wad. It maybe that is why initial pressures are high. The crimp acting more of an obstruction as in not opening fast enough compared to lead?? Either way it won't make any difference to a muzzleloader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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