hakapiken Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 The 12g loads.... I think a better crimp will give you more pressure and cleaner burn,... And also higher velocity. This might also open up the pattern with 1/2 choke. I am using a GAEP BN 2 Crimp finnisher. Spinn to 58mm Gives me very consistent loads. Just putting in more powder is like making a fire for the crows... J.A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 The 12g loads.... I think a better crimp will give you more pressure and cleaner burn,... And also higher velocity. This might also open up the pattern with 1/2 choke. I am using a GAEP BN 2 Crimp finnisher. Spinn to 58mm Gives me very consistent loads. Just putting in more powder is like making a fire for the crows... J.A. I'll try loading a few this evening without the filler card and post the pictures. If the crimps don't collapse in on themselves, I'll take them out and test them. After that, I'll try Underdog's suggestion. Update to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Simple. The standard pattern is a 30" circle at 40 yards. Making the assumption that all pellets travel in a straight line once they leave the barrel of the gun (which they don't but it's near enough) then simple trigonometry shows that if you shoot your pattern plate at 30 yards, then counting the pellets within a 22½" circle will tell you what the 40 yard performance will be. It's not perfect (drawing the circle around the central point rather than the point of aim also implicitly discounts gravity), but if you want to know the difference between 40%, 50%, 60% or 70% patterns, it's good enough. Interesting. I'm not sure that is a particularly reliable way to pattern test. I would wager that your extrapolated patterns are far better than the actual patterns would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK fowler Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Interesting. I'm not sure that is a particularly reliable way to pattern test. I would wager that your extrapolated patterns are far better than the actual patterns would be. yes I agree lead shot does not fly true and you may well find a 45yd pattern falls well below your ex trap figures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Interesting. I'm not sure that is a particularly reliable way to pattern test. I would wager that your extrapolated patterns are far better than the actual patterns would be. Well we have to do what we can, but I feel pretty confident that, generally, in the absence of an external force, a spherical body in motion continues along the straight line in which it is flying until some additional force is applied. Obviously I'm ignoring gravity here. This means that if it's flying along vector X in relation to the line of the gun, it will continue to travel along that vector until something interferes with it. A bird, perhaps. Either way, a 30 yard pattern extrapolated to 40 yards is not going to give a result which is "far better" (or far worse) than an actual 40 yard pattern. Perhaps slightly better, accounting for the reality of pellet deformation and a slightly curved flight path over the extra 10 yards between 30 and 40 yards, but it is not the case that the 50% of the pellets realise that they have reached the 35-yard mark and "decide" to jump three feet to the left, so as to avoid creating a pattern that is unreasonably dense. Another way of looking at it would be with the long-established percentage averages for a given choke over a given distance. See here: http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/guns/shotgun-chokes.html Essentially every pellet in my 30 yard pattern falls within a 30" circle. Therefore I have at least a full choke pattern at 30 yards, equivalent to 70% at 40 yards (see Percentage of Constriction Based on Distance at the above link). I've quoted figures of 74.8% and 77.7% so even accounting for all the factors I can't reliably predict, the maximum error I can report from my method and it's assumptions is 7.7%. Not a huge amount - maybe a difference of a yard or two's range in practical terms. In fact, I'd put good money on the actual error being a hell of a lot smaller and I've got Newton to back me up. Either way it makes no difference. I have a good shell and it'll kill birds. Edit: Oh - and of course - we did shoot some 40 yard patterns, so I don't know why I'm arguing theory with you. The cardboard boxes we had weren't big enough to make for good counts because the shots were off-centre (my fault, I'm afraid), but I don't think TIGHTCHOKE or I felt that there was any particular difference in density or evenness, beyond what we'd expect, over that extra distance. I'm quite sure they'd have come out at 70%-plus as well. When I go out to test the new version of the 12 gauge shell, I'll do some 40 yard patterns with the 16 gauge too and post the results. We can see how much difference ten yards makes. Edited December 21, 2015 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus1988 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 How many shots did you take to produce the results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Dude, don't assume shot is perfectly round! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 How many shots did you take to produce the results? Probably not enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Dude, don't assume shot is perfectly round! I certainly don't - except where I say that I'm making an assumption and factoring that assumption into my considerations (see above, twice, once implied, once explicit). We didn't take enough shots to get a good average but we did enough to get a good idea of what was going on before we ran out of shells / cardboard. We had 18 plus the 2 with the collapsed crimps. There'd have been no point in loading 100 to start with - they might have turned out to be **** and pulling them apart would be even less fun than this thread is becoming... Just to be clear: I'm grateful for everyone's help. I know there are holes in my arguments (I know what they are and I'm allowing myself to leave them unfilled for the sake of convenience). I know I'm making a lot of assumptions (again, I know what they are and no, I'm not going to list them every time I make them). I know I have a good cartridge. If it's throwing 65% or 75% at 40 yards, it doesn't really matter - either will do the job. I know it isn't throwing a 30% pattern blowing up any guns ergo, I'm happy. I may need more help with my 12 gauge load, but whether the 16 gauge load is doing this, that or the other, is not really of any interest any more. It works for me (as do my assumptions). Edited December 21, 2015 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Don't go getting all upset now :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Don't go getting all upset now :-) I'm good - and I continue to appreciate your input. I just felt that we were veering once again into minutiae when the general conclusions were not in doubt. I'll post again with an update when there's more to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB1954 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Don't get hung up over pattern percentages you are putting a shot pattern to point of aim and its worked on a live target - job done on the 16 gauge. I think with the 12 gauge load I would try and improve the crimp before doing anything else, maybe use a washer to get a deeper crimp like others have suggested with a Lee Loadall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Well - here are a handful of new shells I've loaded. I left out the filler wad (2mm cork); weighed all the charges by hand on the scale to be sure that they were consistent and then crimped them hard, first without the washer (shown) to close them, then using a little pressure with the washer on top to deepen them. I'm not sure I'm going to get out to test them before Christmas now, but I'm sure I'll let you know (if the coroner doesn't ) how they work out. Edited December 21, 2015 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Getting better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 You know, you have an absolute average start to reloading. You have experienceed the exact same as everybody else. I did have to step back as its not myforte (16). I can usually point in the right direction. Good for you ! Keep reading and learning. I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted December 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Just a couple of quick updates for this evening. I costed the shells properly now I've settled on a recipe. Since I received the press and conversion kit as early Christmas gifts, I don't have to factor those into my costs, though I have bought batches of new shells rather than recycling fired hulls. Of course, I'll be recycling those new shells once I've used them. With all those factors taken into account, the 16 gauge load is coming out at £7.71 per box for the first load (when I have to pay for the cases) and £4.71 per box for subsequent loadings (where I am reusing the cases). I'm extremely pleased with those numbers - the Hull High Pheasant cartridges, which are the only 16 gauge load I can get at the local shop, cost £8.30 a box, I believe. The 12 gauge load, meanwhile, with it's substantial shot charge, comes out at £9.51 per box for the first load and £6.89 per box for subsequent loadings. I think you can get a Victory 36g shell for less than £9 from Just Cartridges, but it's probably the only one and certainly nothing comes close to the latter sub-£7 figure. If you look for actual 38g loads there, then there are only two to choose from and they're £10.70 and £14.85 per box respectively. Once again, I'm very pleased with those numbers. My final thought to add relates to the deeper crimp I'm trying, illustrated above. Measurements of 58mm or 59mm for length of shell and crimp depth are being bandied about on the other thread relating to loading Vectan A0 which I started previously. The first batch of 12 gauge shells shown above in this thread were not as deeply crimped as that, but the new batch are exactly on that mark and there seems to be a reasonable consensus that that's about right. I'm therefore hopeful that the second batch will generate the proper pressures and perform as expected, rather than disappointingly, as described above. I will report back. Edited December 22, 2015 by neutron619 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutron619 Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 So here's the update: I finally got out today to test the second batches of shells. Only one attendee at today's meeting of the Cambridgeshire Cardboard Perforation Society, but some useful results were obtained. The shorter column and deeper crimp on the 12 gauge load seemed to improve the performance substantially. The unburnt powder and scum seen in the first batch of shells was no longer present and though the recoil was still not as harsh as I'd expect for a 38g shell, on the basis of the blast, the shell was clearly supersonic and therefore presumably achieving or nearly achieving the 1200fps I'd been hoping for. I can only conclude that Vectan A0 is slow enough that the recoil is delivered as a "shove" rather than a "kick". The 30"/40 yard pattern was 74% through a modified choke from my semi-automatic. The 16 gauge load with a slightly reduced charge performed admirably. Like the 12 gauge load, still supersonic, but with slightly more pleasant recoil and an improved pattern - an 81% 30"/40 yard average pattern. A batch will be going to the proof house for testing shortly. It's looking like I'm going to have to find something else to experiment with, since both of these loads now do exactly what I want. I might look into manufacturing some hand tools for loading 28 gauge, since a MEC press is currently out of reach... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 I'd get the Mec and all the gauge sets you need for it. It would be sooooo much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted January 3, 2016 Report Share Posted January 3, 2016 I'd get the Mec and all the gauge sets you need for it. It would be sooooo much better. Yeah. That would be best. You would be best in reloading the most used shells in larger quantities first or the gauge / shells that recoup money faster (if monkey is the deciding factor) Changing gauge is a pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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