Beaters wages - has something changed.

[Davyo]

Suspect nothing much will change ie I will get my £30 and have to pay tax on the lot - I've got a private pension and a PAYE wage - as before. Essentially I'm part self-employed (beaters wages) and part employed. Perhaps our new PM will step in and help us??

Just put yours on the tax return.

[masmiffy]

I am still confused by my 'payslip' from our local shoot.

 

Beaters Pay £35

Stoppages £35

Amount paid ZERO

 

How come I got a letter from tax man for earning nothing?

[scotslad]

Out of courosity as never been paye, but for beating can u claim any money back for dogs (food or vet bills) or clothers water proofs for urselfs?

 

Or if u are paye and also SE for beating does that work better as u can claim ur expenses back

[Piers Austin]

Hi everybody. Does anyone have experience of claiming back expenses such as car mileage and protective clothing from HMRC as a beater? There is a Form P87 you can fill out and send in as long as your total earnings don't exceed £2500. Apparently pickers up are entitled to because they run a dog (any logic in that?) As a beater we are casual employees, non contractual and operate from home, taking our 'tools' i.e. sticks and flags driving to and from the job, which can be several different shoots etc. If you are already in full time employment and on PAYE, this sideline activity is not your main job, so different rules should apply. Even the employers tax code will be different. I tried it recently and they didn't seem to want to play ball, but often it is down to the individual. If there is anyone who has succeeded it would be good to know as we can build up a case law file. There can't be one rule for some and another for others! Wishing everyone a Happy New Year for 2017 and some great beaters days! Cheers P.

[Davyo]

Bit of a grey area as traveling too and from work is not classed as business miles.An example out side of this would be that you are asked to drive to another location outside of you normal work destination). However if your self emp then it can claimed under your normal business expense.

• they need to claim this expense in writing
• they should fill in and send us a P87 for each employer and each year that they are claiming expenses for
• return to the address on the form
• they can get a copy of this form from our website at www.gov.uk - online form will be dealt with quicker
• we can send them a copy if they need one
• we will then decide if they can claim the tax relief
• it will take four weeks to deal with their letter

Other job related exp:

• they need to claim this expense in writing
• they should fill in and send us a P87 for each employer and each year that they are claiming expenses for
• return to the address on the form
• they can get a copy of this form from our website at www.gov.uk - online form will be dealt with quicker
• we can send them a copy if they need one
• we will then decide if they can claim the tax relief
• it will take four weeks to deal with their letter.

Mileage & other expense is both p87, unless inc over £2500, the exception to this is if you are already in Self Assessment by being either Self Employed or SA for other reasons.

Remember Mileage is Tax relief on £0.45 per mile for 1st 10,000 and £0.25 thereafter (so if 20% tax payer you would get £0.09 per mile for 1st 10,000 & £0.05 thereafter.

HOWEVER YOU HAVE TO BE A TAX PAYER IN THE 1ST INSTANCE.

[Piers Austin]

Hi Davyo,

Thanks for your reply to this topic. I assume from your in depth knowledge of the subject you are an HMRC employee as well as a pigeon shooter. The problem I face as I'm sure many hundreds of other members do is that (correct me if I'm wrong) being employed in full time jobs and on PAYE tax deductions, taking days off to go beating, we cannot be officially self-employed as well. This is even though the beating activity has nothing to do with our main job and we are effectively self employed, working from home when going beating! The self employed person can claim business mileage and I for example appear not to be able to. This is discriminatory. The other anomaly is that pickers up, who run a dog can claim all their expenses, again discriminatory as we are all key components of running a driven day shoot. Finally if beating is considered to be a job and income is taxable, one should be allowed to claim the expenses incurred in getting to the job to be able to do it. Theoretically too one should be able to claim for the cost of providing their own lunch if this is not provided and certain protective clothing which has to be replaced due to wear and tear doing the job. All this of course arose because the shoot I help out on has to report wages paid to beaters to HMRC against their NI number and I got a tax bill!

This is however not all of the simplistic story or picture. Am I missing something here?

Wishing you and all members a happy, healthy and prosperous 2017.

Cheers P

[triscrx]

I'm beating at a local shoot next week and heard they pay £30 for the day with lunch provided. I have been asked to bring photo ID and my national insurance card. After reading the above I assume this is so the shoot can register the payments with HMRC? Given that I have a full time job and my tax is currently PAYE will the taxman sting me at the end of the financial year for his share of the £30 then?

 

Given my current earnings I will see £18 of the £30 if the taxman is keen! after fuel and wear and tear etc as Piers mentions above is taken into account + any potential vets bills is a huge negative for those who beat/pickup. I'm doing it more for the experience and to get our working cocker experience but its a shame the taxman is probing such a small payment given to beaters. When the living wage is taken into account if working long days how do shoots get away with such small payments as a 6hr day+ would be well below the minimum wage?

 

Has this always been normal for shoots to declare all beaters wages and take NI details?

[Davyo]

You will pay £6 out of the £30 if your 20% Tax payer or £12 if 40%,you would only be self employed if you give the shoot an invoice regarless of the amount of money you get.Some people have a misconception that if they earn under £11000 they dont need to complete a return.However as ive previously mentioned the easiest way is to try and avoid the self employed route,& get it in your original tax code (be it employment or occupational pension).YOU CAN HAVE OTHER INCOME OF UP TO £2500 IN YOUR CODE.IF YOUR OTHER INCOME EXCEEDS THE £2500 THRESHOLD THEN YOU AUTO GO INTO SELF ASSESSMENT REGARDLESS.Remember you can be self employed as well as employed.

However there are quite a few shoots who are asking their beaters to invoice them so registering as SELF Employed is what you have to do unfortunately.However you can be self emp and emp,but you wouldnt be able to do your self emp work,i.e beating on your day off or rest day from your main job.If you were part time emp,myself for example,i only work 2 days a week so there is nothing stopping me being self employed the rest of the week.(As an HMRC employee there is a strick policy to having an additional job)

Some shoots,usually the big Estates already ran PAYE,so when RTI (real time information)came on board they ran their beaters through payroll. (THERE IS ANOTHER REASON BEHIND THIS,BUT ONE THAT IS NOT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Regarding getting the expenses offset,it's a lot easier if you are selfemployed.However there is a lot of grey areas and without the tax manual in front of me i couldnt advise any further.My advise is to call the tax office and say that you need to speak with a Tech regarding allowable expenses.

Regarding the minimum wage,well that's not a taxes issue,that would be ACAS that sorts that out.

This is the best bit I can't go beating or take any second job without having pemission from my employer 1st lol.This is HMRC policy for its employees.Dont know how other employers policies are.

Unfortunately we all have to pay Tax,even me.

Happy new year to everyone and enjoy the rest of the season.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Davyo

[norfolk dumpling]

Personally Ive found the new system works well and HMRc's online access now much better and very easy to declare the few hundred quid I earn beating. With 2 other sources of income HMRC simply adjust my tax code to recoup their bit.

[silver pigeon69]

You will pay £6 out of the £30 if your 20% Tax payer or £12 if 40%,you would only be self employed if you give the shoot an invoice regarless of the amount of money you get.Some people have a misconception that if they earn under £11000 they dont need to complete a return.However as ive previously mentioned the easiest way is to try and avoid the self employed route,& get it in your original tax code (be it employment or occupational pension).YOU CAN HAVE OTHER INCOME OF UP TO £2500 IN YOUR CODE.IF YOUR OTHER INCOME EXCEEDS THE £2500 THRESHOLD THEN YOU AUTO GO INTO SELF ASSESSMENT REGARDLESS.Remember you can be self employed as well as employed.

However there are quite a few shoots who are asking their beaters to invoice them so registering as SELF Employed is what you have to do unfortunately.However you can be self emp and emp,but you wouldnt be able to do your self emp work,i.e beating on your day off or rest day from your main job.If you were part time emp,myself for example,i only work 2 days a week so there is nothing stopping me being self employed the rest of the week.(As an HMRC employee there is a strick policy to having an additional job)

Some shoots,usually the big Estates already ran PAYE,so when RTI (real time information)came on board they ran their beaters through payroll. (THERE IS ANOTHER REASON BEHIND THIS,BUT ONE THAT IS NOT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

Regarding getting the expenses offset,it's a lot easier if you are selfemployed.However there is a lot of grey areas and without the tax manual in front of me i couldnt advise any further.My advise is to call the tax office and say that you need to speak with a Tech regarding allowable expenses.

Regarding the minimum wage,well that's not a taxes issue,that would be ACAS that sorts that out.

This is the best bit I can't go beating or take any second job without having pemission from my employer 1st lol.This is HMRC policy for its employees.Dont know how other employers policies are.

Unfortunately we all have to pay Tax,even me.

Happy new year to everyone and enjoy the rest of the season.

Are you allowed to tell us what the reason is??

[Davyo]

Sorry i can't at the moment other than whats already been made public.It will become public knowledge in 2018.I can say though that the new benifit system Universal Credit (ran by DWP) will have a licence to link their systems into NPS (PAYE) and Self Assessment.They will be able to track all their claimants income on a weekly or monthly basis.The reason is so they can adjust their claimants benifits as income increases or decreases.

The annual self assessment tax return will also dissapear in the future once everyone in the UK has their own PTA (personal tax account).Returns will more than likely to be done on a monthly or quarterly basis.Effectivlry Self Employed people will run their own little paye system through their own PTA.