Shot speed/clay speed

[Glenlivet]

Following a comment about slower cartridges not affecting clay breaks, I did a few VERY rough calculations. At 40 yards it takes a 1300fps shot around 0.094 seconds to hit the target. The same shot at 1200fps takes 0.1 seconds to hit. During this time difference the clay can travel between 1 to 1.5 feet, which I think is enough to cause a miss. Especially if the shooter is relying on shot spread/string length for a hit.

 

Or are my maths completely off (not beyond the realms of possibility)?

[Guest stevo]

how do you know fast the clay is going ?

[rbrowning2]

I think your maths is ok if you are measuring the shot velocity at 40yards if you are using the shot velocity at the muzzle which is what most manufactures quote and assuming same shot size then the 1400fps will lose its velocity much quicker than the 1300fps will and by the time they both reach the 40yard target will both be doing virtually the same velocity so take similar time to reach the target so the lead will be in measured in a couple of inches at best not feet.

[Glenlivet]

how do you know fast the clay is going ?

Apparently in international skeet (for example) the clay is launched at 53mph. Of course then it starts to decelerate making the calculations, along with shot deceleration (thanks rb2), even more spurious. And in sporting, winding the trap spring up/changing wind conditions add to the fun.

 

My point remains, with differences of 150fps+ in muzzle velocity, some effect must be apparent in some circumstances.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Glenlivet

[TONY R]

initial speed and terminal speed downrange is not as easy to calculate as you would think, kpy programe or ed lowerys programe, are a close enough guess for practical requirements but not full proff by any means.

Higher initial speeds regardless of shot type will see the shot slow down a little quicker than a slower load, but the faster load will still be quicker on target than a slower load.

Now how significant that is to breaking a clay or killing a bird is a moot point, and there are many variables to take into account shot size shot type etc. The effect on required lead is theoretical minimal as is the shot string effect.

If a shooter is depending on muzle velocity or shot string for a hit he is heading for a miss.

You can help shot stringing even increase it by duplexing shot sizes and esspecialy shot types, and it might even pattern no worse but its accademic for the most part regarding results .

[dougall]

I think your maths is ok if you are measuring the shot velocity at 40yards if you are using the shot velocity at the muzzle which is what most manufactures quote and assuming same shot size then the 1400fps will lose its velocity much quicker than the 1300fps will and by the time they both reach the 40yard target will both be doing virtually the same velocity so take similar time to reach the target so the lead will be in measured in a couple of inches at best not feet.

+1 terminal velocity down range is the key,a fast accelerating clump of shot ipso factor has a higher degree of wind resistance and slows quicker..........yes there will be a small difference but it is inches not feet

[wymberley]

Using the velocities given and coupled up with 7&1/2 shot, the 1300 will carry 592 ft/sec at the 40 yards having taken 0.150 secs to arrive. Similarly, the 1200 figures are 576 and 0.155. At 40 mph the clay would have travelled some 3.5" between the 1300 and the 1200 arriving.

Edited April 20, 2016 by wymberley

[Guest cookoff013]

i bet the 1200fps loads battern petter.

[figgy]

Cookoff I was in a discussion tonight were one of the lads,he and his mate pattern tested a load of high end clay carts all 7.5 shot the 28g slower carts tended to have denser core than the cheaper fast cartridges the best budget cart pattern was the fiochi top ones he said and they are a slower cart. The 24 g carts tended to keep a good pattern close and further out with less flyers regardless of make or cost. Same with 21g good pattern spread just less in it.

 

I have seen some pattern sheets for fast carts that look like a life ring.

Edited April 20, 2016 by figgy

[Glenlivet]

i bet the 1200fps loads battern petter.

Spooneritis??

[Glenlivet]

Cookoff I was in a discussion tonight were one of the lads,he and his mate pattern tested a load of high end clay carts all 7.5 shot the 28g slower carts tended to have denser core than the cheaper fast cartridges the best budget cart pattern was the fiochi top ones he said and they are a slower cart. The 24 g carts tended to keep a good pattern close and further out with less flyers regardless of make or cost. Same with 21g good pattern spread just less in it.

I have seen some pattern sheets for fast carts that look like a life ring.

One of the reasons for my post was that I tried a couple of slabs of Comp X 28g and couldn't hit the proverbial barn door with them, even though my wife noticed no difference through her Beretta. My thoughts were/are that, for what ever reason, they don't pattern well through my gun. When I noticed the difference in muzzle speed between the Comp Xs and my normal Hull Superfast and Velocity+ etc. I began to wonder whether there was more to it.

[figgy]

I can tell a difference between 28g comp X and faster carts. Others do not, to me 200fps is noticed.

[Catamong]

An interesting question, if you read the advice given on most American Shooting forums, they say that speeds of around 1250 ft/sec give the best patterns, and faster speeds will "blow" the pattern with lots of "flyers", but if you read the data printed on most boxes of shells sold in the UK,they all come in around 1450 ft/sec, do the Yanks use a different method of speed measurement..?

 

Cat.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Catamong

[TIGHTCHOKE]

An interesting question, if you read the advice given on most American Shooting forums, they say that speeds of around 1250 ft/sec give the best patterns, and faster speeds will "blow" the pattern with lots of "flyers", but if you read the data printed on most boxes of shells sold in the UK,they all come in around 1450 ft/sec, do the Yanks use a different method of speed measurement..?

 

Cat.

 

Possibly, but could it be that shooters want to feel they are shooting fast shells and like the high brass heads will pay for a premium for them?

[wymberley]

An interesting question, if you read the advice given on most American Shooting forums, they say that speeds of around 1250 ft/sec give the best patterns, and faster speeds will "blow" the pattern with lots of "flyers", but if you read the data printed on most boxes of shells sold in the UK,they all come in around 1450 ft/sec, do the Yanks use a different method of speed measurement..?

 

Cat.

Problem is, what does the 1450 - or any other figure - refer to? It seems that every manufacturer uses a differing base for their advertised MV. It's OK where that is given, but one manufacturer says nowt about his 1450 and when checked from the advertising bumph, at the muzzle the figure appeared to be 1650. When asked if the advertised figure related to what was thought to be the case, he declined to give any answer so what is one supposed to think?

 

 

Possibly, but could it be that shooters want to feel they are shooting fast shells and like the high brass heads will pay for a premium for them?

Nail headed.

[Guest cookoff013]

Cookoff I was in a discussion tonight were one of the lads,he and his mate pattern tested a load of high end clay carts all 7.5 shot the 28g slower carts tended to have denser core than the cheaper fast cartridges the best budget cart pattern was the fiochi top ones he said and they are a slower cart. The 24 g carts tended to keep a good pattern close and further out with less flyers regardless of make or cost. Same with 21g good pattern spread just less in it.

 

I have seen some pattern sheets for fast carts that look like a life ring.

 

yep, and i can tell you this, the baguettes that come from the 1200fps loads are phenomenal, good dense core not blotchy at all. infact as everyone knows i make subsonics and pattern them. i went to my club with a friend, it just so happens they wer all whitewashing and testing on the pattern boat. i put in a 7.5 28gram load through 1/4. covered the whole plate. sparce core. put in one of my bun cartridges and shot in the top corner.

absolutely covered the corner...

some guy -"what the hell was that?"

me "homeload"

 

my mate was impressed. he got his old reloader out to have a go.

 

the cut off of about 1200fps is enough to "get there" but the old addage is still there, big shot... they are serious decent cartridges "through ANY barrel choke combo".

 

and they dont recoil much. they are batter cartridges...

easy to reload too, normal components.....

[Catamong]

OK, but what UK factory loads come out at 1200, or thereabouts..?

 

Cat.

[wymberley]

OK, but what UK factory loads come out at 1200, or thereabouts..?

 

Cat.

The answer is probably more to do with the manufacturers supplying us with what they believe is what we think we need. If nobody wanted/bought them, they'd pretty soon stop making them so it's safe to say that we get what we deserve. As we've seen, there's very little difference in energy/velocity levels downrange between 1200 and 1300 ft/sec - or 1400+ for that matter - and, as ever, it's the pattern that counts. If we went back a good few years before the advent of multi chokes and the then need to pattern our fixed choke gun as this was the only way to get what we wanted and if more people did so now, it would very quickly be realised that what Cookoff is saying is perfectly valid.

[Glenlivet]

OK, but what UK factory loads come out at 1200, or thereabouts..?

 

Cat.

....and who do you believe? Hull Superfast are marketed at 1500fps but johnnytheboy on here has tested them at 1328!

 

Superfast, Velocity+ and Kent mmxvi all work for me, Comp x certainly don't so I'll stick with what I know.

 

Btw, when I shot the pattern plate at H&H with Superfast fibres through IC with my Guerini, the patterns were pretty tight and evenly spread. 'Nuf said!

[Guest cookoff013]

also, slower shells respond to choking differently.

 

going to 1500fps lead loads and choking on 3/4, to get "a" pattern vs great and changable patterns through the whole +40 thou range.

if the speed is so low, you get super hot core, full patterns+ from every choke.

 

about 1200 is fast enough to be controlled by choking without sillyness

[TONY R]

Wading can have a profound efect on a load not just speed or choke, there are many other factors.

[Westward]

do the Yanks use a different method of speed measurement..?

 

Cat.

Yes. There are variations between the UK at 3" from the muzzle, CIP in Europe measure at 1 metre and SAAMI in America who measure at 3'. Someone estimated that the difference between UK an US measurements amounted to about 150fps which explains why 'White Golds' are listed in America as 1250 fps.

[Guest cookoff013]

Yes. There are variations between the UK at 3" from the muzzle, CIP in Europe measure at 1 metre and SAAMI in America who measure at 3'. Someone estimated that the difference between UK an US measurements amounted to about 150fps which explains why 'White Golds' are listed in America as 1250 fps.

 

CIP measure at 2.5M from muzzle.

[Catamong]

Ah, I thought as much, thanks for your response.

 

Cat.

[wymberley]

....and who do you believe?

Precisely. However, don't forget that Johnny tested them at a distance and if about 2 or 3 yards his figure would coincide with Hull's.