B&P DUPLEXING COPPER IN THEIR NEW LOADS

[TONY R]

Now all the theory aside for a moment duplexing is not new and its not as rare as you think, in Turkey Hunting Duplexing is pretty common, and comercial loads are available duplexed and have been a long time.

Turkey hunters are all about patterns its what they need, and duplexing works for them, could it not be that B&P have done their research and testing well on a relatively new type of shot media and found this method was benificial to pattern and performance in these loads?

I can not see what they could gain by duplexing if it is a faliure its not saving them any money duplexing and its not going to do them any good in either credibility or sales, in fact they could be landed with a load of these loads they can not sell.

Am i missing something here? I just do not see the logic in B&P producing this stuff if its not going to work.

[FatFreddysCat]

I was introduced to shooting by my godfather. Back in the 60's he was still using a muzzle loader and newspaper for wadding. He bought whatever shot was cheap and available and mixed it together. He always said it gave him the best of both worlds as when using a muzzle loader he couldn't change cartridges as with a breech loader. Whether it actually made a difference, I don't know, but he was a cracking shot and bought home big bags of pigeons.

[rbrowning2]

Indeed B&P are a prolific manufacture of top quality shooting components, propellant and cartridges so yes I would think they have done their homework and the cartridges must perform as intended otherwise why go to the trouble of loading two sizes of shot which must not be as simple as it sounds.

 

Anybody know how much they cost?

[casts_by_fly]

Now all the theory aside for a moment duplexing is not new and its not as rare as you think, in Turkey Hunting Duplexing is pretty common, and comercial loads are available duplexed and have been a long time.

Turkey hunters are all about patterns its what they need, and duplexing works for them, could it not be that B&P have done their research and testing well on a relatively new type of shot media and found this method was benificial to pattern and performance in these loads?

I can not see what they could gain by duplexing if it is a faliure its not saving them any money duplexing and its not going to do them any good in either credibility or sales, in fact they could be landed with a load of these loads they can not sell.

Am i missing something here? I just do not see the logic in B&P producing this stuff if its not going to work.

 

 

actually, duplexed loads are not common for Turkey. they were a Winchester marketing gimmick some time in the past (over 10 years ago I believe) and then died out. they came back around recently. Specifically to Turkey, you need pattern density. A #6 has enough energy at 60 yards to be effective, so using the smaller shot gives you the higher pattern density. There were duplexed loads with 4's and 6's but you don't need the energy of 4's to kill turkeys unless you try to body shoot them at range (which isn't advisable).

 

Duplex loads have been discussed on this forum and others many times. The problem is that when you need the larger pellet size (at distance) you don't have enough pellets to fill the pattern and when you want the smaller pellets for pattern density you don't need the energy of the larger pellets (and thus have given up some density for pellet energy).

 

Will the pellets in front of the shot string help break the air for the ones behind? A little and for a little while. That is until either (a) the pellets behind pass the pellets in front, (b) the pellets in front 'run away from' the pellets behind such that the pellets behind are no longer in the slipstream of the front pellets. How big is the slipstream? About the diameter of a pellet for spherical pellets in a fluid medium. At high speed it might extend a couple pellet lengths further, but we're still talking about there being no benefit for the pellet behind when it is more than a centimeter away. How long does it take for the pellets to be 1 cm apart? Not very far away from the muzzle. So while the science may say that there is a theoretical effect, the practical effect is small and does not outweigh what you are giving up as a compromise.

 

thanks,

rick

[TONY R]

 

 

actually, duplexed loads are not common for Turkey. they were a Winchester marketing gimmick some time in the past (over 10 years ago I believe) and then died out. they came back around recently. Specifically to Turkey, you need pattern density. A #6 has enough energy at 60 yards to be effective, so using the smaller shot gives you the higher pattern density. There were duplexed loads with 4's and 6's but you don't need the energy of 4's to kill turkeys unless you try to body shoot them at range (which isn't advisable).

 

Duplex loads have been discussed on this forum and others many times. The problem is that when you need the larger pellet size (at distance) you don't have enough pellets to fill the pattern and when you want the smaller pellets for pattern density you don't need the energy of the larger pellets (and thus have given up some density for pellet energy).

 

Will the pellets in front of the shot string help break the air for the ones behind? A little and for a little while. That is until either (a) the pellets behind pass the pellets in front, (b) the pellets in front 'run away from' the pellets behind such that the pellets behind are no longer in the slipstream of the front pellets. How big is the slipstream? About the diameter of a pellet for spherical pellets in a fluid medium. At high speed it might extend a couple pellet lengths further, but we're still talking about there being no benefit for the pellet behind when it is more than a centimeter away. How long does it take for the pellets to be 1 cm apart? Not very far away from the muzzle. So while the science may say that there is a theoretical effect, the practical effect is small and does not outweigh what you are giving up as a compromise.

 

thanks,

rick

Sorry but Remington premier turkey duplex have been on the go for years early to mid 1990s , and were mainstream as the go to load untill the Nittros came on the scene a few years ago.

Edited May 18, 2016 by TONY R

[johnnytheboy]

My homeloads are duplex loads, maybe even triplex! God know what went in the last lot!

[TONY R]

I guess your right i supose reclaimed shot could be classed as duplexing or multiplexing.

[Continental Shooter]

I am not disputing the laws of physics just your belief that a a few mm diameter ball travelling through air at a few hundred mtrs per second can create a continuous vacuum for a distance of 10,20.....60mtrs for another even small ball traveling at some random distance and position in space and tine behind it.

 

Just seams incredible to me, but if you think it does so be it.

 

so, i can now see where the confusion lies:

 

I never suggested the vacuum extends to 60 mt or even 20 for that matters; and if i did i apologise.

 

The vacuum lasts only few meters and that is where the 2 sizes (or few mm) in diameters come into play:

 

The bigger shots will loose speed at a slower pace than the smaller pellets; if you help these pellets retain speed for even a very short distance you will bring them in line with the bigger pellets at some point in time/distance (Newton's 2nd Dynamic Law).

 

that is also the problem with these type of shells: the standard ones are tested on specific guns/bore/choke/barrel length and optimised for that.

 

When you use a different choke, bore, etc. you will alter the factory results; that might also explain the inconsistency of these shells from individual to individual.

 

However, if you reload your own, you can tailor them to your gun/choke/etc. and make it work.

 

Is it worth it? dunno, obviously not for you and others ... but surely there is a market out there if B&P and NSI have come out with them...

[Continental Shooter]

 

duplexing has been done for years but never ever stays, same as half shot sizes, 6.5s being better because of the extra 2-6 pellets per ounce on a classic load (or thereabouts.).

i have even heard of shotsizes 6,1/4 that is apparently "the bomb" but has never took off.

 

Well, obviously the UK market isn't as big as others and the demand/availability isn't sufficient to justify certain 'inventions' but surely if they come up with it, there is to be a reason lying somewhere

 

great shells are exactly that, the whole package.

 

Great shells are those that work for me! and for that, in my experience of shooting in different countries, there is no a shell that is common to all of them; it all depends on you location, quarry, and conditions.

 

Surely if you have to shoot woodies or ducks travelling at 40-60 mt distanceyou wouldn't use a 28gr #6 ... those will not be effective in the slightest ... but i wouldn't say they aren't good in the right conditions....

 

For passing woodies on mountains crtossing places in Spain, Italy and France the standard is 34 #5 (Italian) up to 40-50 gr Magnums #3 (Italian), in Italy and Spain, for woodcocks in thick woodland, the standard is a 32-34 gr, disperser, RTO #7,8 or 9 (Italian) or a combination of these (duplex)

 

ferrari are fast, so if i paint my lead red, they should be fast !

 

These days i'd go for silver (Mercedes), they're far quicker LOL

[casts_by_fly]

Sorry but Remington premier turkey duplex have been on the go for years early to mid 1990s , and were mainstream as the go to load untill the Nittros came on the scene a few years ago.

 

I will grant you that they were around on and off back to then, but I certainly wouldn't call them then 'go-to' load. Given that I was living in and shooting turkeys in the US in the 90's and early 2000's I can say that they weren't common in the area I was in. You would get some marketing for them in waves but they weren't the go to load. Buffered, copper plated 3" loads of 6's were the standard (regardless of brand) for actual turkey hunting (and for turkey card shoots it was the same but of 9's or as small as allowed).

 

thanks,

rick

[TONY R]

Not a turkey hunter never even seen one, but as far back as the start of the internet i spent more time on every turkey hunting site web page and forum i could find, The reloading info on some sites put the Waterfowl sites to shame on technical input.

I watched what was popular what was working what chokes ranges shot types patterns, The premiers were popular and people still mrention them fondly now. i am on old gobbler at least once a week see whats hot and whats not.

It is not directly compatable to Waterfowling, but a load is a load, and a choke is a choke. And like i said i am open minded about things it can pay dividends i have found.

[hambone]

Gamebore used to sell 'Impact Tungsten Matrix' multi shot. It was in a 70mm case with 4 shot steel and 5 shot tungsten. I found them ok higher up my local estuary but never really tried pushing the distance with them.

[Stonepark]

Not a turkey hunter never even seen one, but as far back as the start of the internet i spent more time on every turkey hunting site web page and forum i could find, The reloading info on some sites put the Waterfowl sites to shame on technical input.

I watched what was popular what was working what chokes ranges shot types patterns, The premiers were popular and people still mrention them fondly now. i am on old gobbler at least once a week see whats hot and whats not.

It is not directly compatable to Waterfowling, but a load is a load, and a choke is a choke. And like i said i am open minded about things it can pay dividends i have found.

Haven't shot turkeys, but the tss9 home loads recipes and pattern tests are very interesting.

[wymberley]

 

 

actually, duplexed loads are not common for Turkey. they were a Winchester marketing gimmick some time in the past (over 10 years ago I believe) and then died out. they came back around recently. Specifically to Turkey, you need pattern density. A #6 has enough energy at 60 yards to be effective, so using the smaller shot gives you the higher pattern density. There were duplexed loads with 4's and 6's but you don't need the energy of 4's to kill turkeys unless you try to body shoot them at range (which isn't advisable).

 

Duplex loads have been discussed on this forum and others many times. The problem is that when you need the larger pellet size (at distance) you don't have enough pellets to fill the pattern and when you want the smaller pellets for pattern density you don't need the energy of the larger pellets (and thus have given up some density for pellet energy).

 

Will the pellets in front of the shot string help break the air for the ones behind? A little and for a little while. That is until either (a) the pellets behind pass the pellets in front, (b) the pellets in front 'run away from' the pellets behind such that the pellets behind are no longer in the slipstream of the front pellets. How big is the slipstream? About the diameter of a pellet for spherical pellets in a fluid medium. At high speed it might extend a couple pellet lengths further, but we're still talking about there being no benefit for the pellet behind when it is more than a centimeter away. How long does it take for the pellets to be 1 cm apart? Not very far away from the muzzle. So while the science may say that there is a theoretical effect, the practical effect is small and does not outweigh what you are giving up as a compromise.

 

thanks,

rick

+ 0.033"

[TONY R]

Haven't shot turkeys, but the tss9 home loads recipes and pattern tests are very interesting.

TSS or HW 19 Well HW18.71 acctualy is incredible nothing is near it on geese in my expereience.

One other point on Duplexing the American get a hevi shot ammo called hevi mettal its mix of steel and a Hevi shot probably HW13 at a guess, its popular over there, but not with out its critics. But i will say most of the negative coments seem to be firmly aimed at the parent company hevi shot environ mettals rather than the ammo its self.

So its perhaps not as rare as you think this duplexing idea.

Edited May 19, 2016 by TONY R

[TONY R]

+ 0.033"

In that case the 3s which are on average 3.54mm plus the 0.033 equates to 0.172 or 4.368 mm, any body got KPY to give a downrange calk ?

Hang on ...No need the American Dave in AZ did it all here are the numbers. they dont look that poor to me.

 

Here’s the numbers I got using KPY ballistics, 1000’msl, 32F, 1.5″ gel penetration. They didn’t say the % mix of pellets, but it looked like roughly 30%-40% with the smaller shot taking slightly less volume, so I’ll use 40% by weight of the smaller shot:

2.75″ 1-1/8oz #6 and #4 shot, 1443fps: 124 #6 pellets with 27.4 yds penetration; and 112 #4 pellets with 44.6 yards. Total: 236 pellets

2.75″ 1-1/5oz #5 and #3 shot, 1378fps: 102 #5 pellets with 34.2 yds penetration; and 96 #3 pellets with 52.0 yards. Total: 198 pellets

3.00″ 1-1/4oz #5 and #3 shot, 1443fps: 106 #5 pellets with 35.8 yds penetration; and 100 #3 pellets with 53.9 yards. Total: 206 pellets

Edited May 19, 2016 by TONY R

[wymberley]

In that case the 3s which are on average 3.54mm plus the 0.033 equates to 0.172 or 4.368 mm, any body got KPY to give a downrange calk ?

Hang on ...No need the American Dave in AZ did it all here are the numbers. they dont look that poor to me.

 

Here’s the numbers I got using KPY ballistics, 1000’msl, 32F, 1.5″ gel penetration. They didn’t say the % mix of pellets, but it looked like roughly 30%-40% with the smaller shot taking slightly less volume, so I’ll use 40% by weight of the smaller shot:

2.75″ 1-1/8oz #6 and #4 shot, 1443fps: 124 #6 pellets with 27.4 yds penetration; and 112 #4 pellets with 44.6 yards. Total: 236 pellets

2.75″ 1-1/5oz #5 and #3 shot, 1378fps: 102 #5 pellets with 34.2 yds penetration; and 96 #3 pellets with 52.0 yards. Total: 198 pellets

3.00″ 1-1/4oz #5 and #3 shot, 1443fps: 106 #5 pellets with 35.8 yds penetration; and 100 #3 pellets with 53.9 yards. Total: 206 pellets

The pinned Table at Lead and Steel shot Sizes above would suggest that those figures area little ambitious although it must be said that the comparison figures used are not 100% identical but close enough.

[TONY R]

The pinned Table at Lead and Steel shot Sizes above would suggest that those figures area little ambitious although it must be said that the comparison figures used are not 100% identical but close enough.

KPY is not perfect but its about as close as your average Reloader can get to downrange performance.

And in its defence its accurate enough and fit for purpose.