What would you do?

[DrBob]

A question for the PW fraternity....

I have the option of a new Beretta 486 Parallelo or a 1914 Cogswell and Harrison Best ( Victor) sidelock with ( excellent) sleeved barrels, both twenty bore.

The Beretta is a current, new model; steel proofed, absolutely latest technology, modern alloys, machine made to very fine tolerances.

The C&H is a vintage gun, a hand- built English gun, woodwork and action absolutely superb, the gun has been thoroughly serviced and refurbished. The barrels have been sleeved to a high standard, no visible evidence.

The gun will be for high days and holidays, occasional use.

Head says Beretta ( steel proof, modern gun), heart says the C&H ( style, tradition etc).

What would you buy...

[TONY R]

The Berettas your call, i persoaly would leave it, i dont like Beretta Sxs Anyway, And newer Berettas just leave me cold i would seriously be more exited by an old Beretta 56E in 20 than that one. .. So basicaly no to the beretta.

A nd now the cogy its good gun good maker but its been slieved thats ok i guess but not for me again PERSONALY, i want the real deal with an english gun, not a farmed up barreled action no matter how good its done.

Opinions may differ to mine but its just my take on what you say, walk from both is my opinion.

[deershooter]

Cogswell & harrison wasn't that good when they were new avoid a sleeved one

[Scully]

Neither personally, of those two. I'd leave it until I could afford a good original vintage sxs I think.

[JohnfromUK]

There is nothing technically wrong with sleeving; but it does reduce value and 'collectability' - and depending on how well it has been done, it can make a gun muzzle heavy (only because its often done as a cost saving alternative to new barrels - and saving costs is also applied to the striking up of the barrels, so they can end up quite thick walled towards the muzzle).

I don't know the Beretta, but any new gun will depreciate - especially a rather specialist item like a 20 bore s/s, so I'd not go there either. I go with the "leave until you can afford a good original", or look for a good original English boxlock. Superb value to be had there and shouldn't ever depreciate significantly.

[panoma1]

The Beretta if the lead shot ban had gone against us! But an English SBS every time for me as it's gone our way! Sleeved OK to shoot if cheap enough......but one with original barrels for an investment.

[SxS]

I have a 486 - really like it - it's a massive improvement on the Silver Hawk and will handle pretty much any situation, but take the time to get it fitted properly (the stocks are very short, for me at least, and SxS shoot poorly if badly fitted). £50 (if memory serves correctly) to GMK and you have a 10 yr warranty.

 

Not sure if/when pricing will change as a result of the pound/Euro exchange rate. If you can get one based on the old exchange rate then you might find that offsets any depreciation.

 

There are lots of nice old SxS guns out there when you get to the £3-4k mark... probably wouldn't pay that sort of money for a sleeved C&H, but if it's cheaper than that then wouldn't rule out a gun because of sleeving.

[bostonmick]

in my opinion i would say that 85 % of the old english guns on the market today are just worn out rubbish,most have 2.5 inc chambers so restricts the range of cartridges you can use.the actions if engraved always look tired and worn.the wood will have the ravages of time also,i think that a lot of people who extol the beauty of these old pieces will have put on their rose tinted specs before looking at said gun.if this gun has been refurbed it means it has had its life and was worn out or neglected,was it done by the makers or someone else were the internals all replaced with new quality parts or just cleaned and adjust old worn parts.refinishing the wood on an old gun can and does deflect the eye from the bad bits.unless you can go the likes of purdey/churchill or boss i would go new modern every time.that way you are not limited in any way.

[TONY R]

in my opinion i would say that 85 % of the old english guns on the market today are just worn out rubbish,most have 2.5 inc chambers so restricts the range of cartridges you can use.the actions if engraved always look tired and worn.the wood will have the ravages of time also,i think that a lot of people who extol the beauty of these old pieces will have put on their rose tinted specs before looking at said gun.if this gun has been refurbed it means it has had its life and was worn out or neglected,was it done by the makers or someone else were the internals all replaced with new quality parts or just cleaned and adjust old worn parts.refinishing the wood on an old gun can and does deflect the eye from the bad bits.unless you can go the likes of purdey/churchill or boss i would go new modern every time.that way you are not limited in any way.

I agree with this, if i were in the market for a English double i would go straight for a Good sound original webley 700 or even the less populat 500 model, They are well made handle great wear well are often on 70mm chambers and over all are good guns.

The only other english gun i would consider isof a much lower standing and thats the humble BSA boxlock, these are unloved even to this very day they go from 50 to 200 quid in some instances, they can have 70mm chambers are jesops fluid steel barrels very sturdy well made guns some even have a bit of engraving and a slightly slicker looking stock on them.

True bargains both these guns.

No need for researching the makers no need to work out if it was historicaly a belgian made trade piece shiped over the chanel in the white stocked and profed here marked up with some maker or ironmongers nane on the rib. Not rare this.

Webley 700 known ... BSA.. Known all good no frills but very much English and English in a good way.

[panoma1]

I agree with this, if i were in the market for a English double i would go straight for a Good sound original webley 700 or even the less populat 500 model, They are well made handle great wear well are often on 70mm chambers and over all are good guns.

The only other english gun i would consider isof a much lower standing and thats the humble BSA boxlock, these are unloved even to this very day they go from 50 to 200 quid in some instances, they can have 70mm chambers are jesops fluid steel barrels very sturdy well made guns some even have a bit of engraving and a slightly slicker looking stock on them.

True bargains both these guns.

No need for researching the makers no need to work out if it was historicaly a belgian made trade piece shiped over the chanel in the white stocked and profed here marked up with some maker or ironmongers nane on the rib. Not rare this.

Webley 700 known ... BSA.. Known all good no frills but very much English and English in a good way.

 

Webley and BSA also made a large number of guns that were to bear the names of many gunmakers at home and abroad, even the top London ones.......I agree there is a lot of spoodled up rubbish out there but get a quality, original English gun with original finish and original specifications and you will struggle to find a better handling gun!......but as always, condition is everything!

[matone]

Good 20b British guns are hard to find ! Most will be lightweight & short barrelled .I would go for something modern tbh.

Fully agree with TonyR re Webley & BSA guns but the 20b part makes that difficult.

Hth.