A thought-provoking essay on disability and abortion

[lord_seagrave]

Cranmer and his team are always worth a read, but I felt especially contemplative after reading this and thought it was worth a share:

 

http://archbishopcranmer.com/celebrate-inspirational-paralympians-abort-disabled-womb/

 

LS

[Scully]

Not an easy one I must admit; if it had been from the perspective of anything other than religion, I may have read it all.

[keg]

Connected but also slightly off topic.

 

Whilst it's a very personal issue, and i will not judge anyone that has had to make a decision about an abortion, when it being legalised was being discussed, some fears were voiced about it becoming a form of birth control. In a small number of cases this has happened, with some girls having had several abortions by their mid 20s.

 

 

Just out of interest, If we head the same way with assisted suicide and legalise it, does it open it up for similar issues problems?

 

I do stress that i am not judging and can't imagine what sort of place you must be in to contemplate it.

[ordnance]

 

Whilst it's a very personal issue, and i will not judge anyone that has had to make a decision about an abortion, when it being legalised was being discussed,

 

Emotive subject with strong views on both sides of the debate, personally i doint see any difference in killing a baby in or out of the womb. Thankfully it is illegal in this part of the UK.

[four-wheel-drive]

Some years ago I did a computer course and as part of it they put me in the office of a place that looked after disabled young people they have large houses kitted out for them to live as good a life as they can and that is good.

 

But the problem was as I saw it the cost of having qualified staff there 24 hours a day plus the fact that the house must have cost a bundle one has to think that at a time when so many other people need help and cannot get it can we afford it.

 

often if people have mental problems there are no hospital places for them to go and the police have to put them in sells old people cannot come out of hospitals as there is no money to pay for there care at home.

 

I do not no what the answer is but it does make think.

 

Then we get in to the question of the refugees some of them will have lots of both physical and mental problems as well as needing houses and money.

Edited September 21, 2016 by four-wheel-drive

[AVB]

I would never judge anybody either way. Many years ago a family friend was raped and had an abortion. A few years later had a child with Downs Syndrome. She is still disturbed even today and fears that having a disabled child was punishment for having an abortion.

 

I would just be grateful that, as a man, I have never had to make such a decision.

[Scully]

 

I would never judge anybody either way. Many years ago a family friend was raped and had an abortion. A few years later had a child with Downs Syndrome. She is still disturbed even today and fears that having a disabled child was punishment for having an abortion.

 

/quote]

Ridiculous notion! Punished by who?

[shaun4860]

Ridiculous notion! Punished by who?

People deal with grief and guilt in different ways,

 

We have no right to judge these people as we are not in their shoes

 

[Scully]

People deal with grief and guilt in different ways,

 

We have no right to judge these people as we are not in their shoes

 

 

Yes, they do, and whether she feels guilty either for being a rape victim or aborting the result of that attack is unclear, although perfectly understandable, but those responsible for the indoctrination which has caused her to believe she has been punished for the abortion certainly need judging.

Whom does she believe is punishing her if not some sort of entity? She is certainly not, or has certainly not, received the help she needs nor deserves.

[keg]

 

Yes, they do, and whether she feels guilty either for being a rape victim or aborting the result of that attack is unclear, although perfectly understandable, but those responsible for the indoctrination which has caused her to believe she has been punished for the abortion certainly need judging.

Whom does she believe is punishing her if not some sort of entity? She is certainly not, or has certainly not, received the help she needs nor deserves.

All true but if the girl involved believed in that entity and possibly drew strength from that entity, again, who are we to judge.

 

On another note, some god points raised all round and it's still civil.

[Scully]

All true but if the girl involved believed in that entity and possibly drew strength from that entity, again, who are we to judge.

 

On another note, some god points raised all round and it's still civil.

 

I just can't help thinking that if she is living with the belief, and has made it public, that her downs syndrome child is punishment for her perceived sins, then she desperately needs some serious help. Further, if someone has planted this belief in her head, or reinforced it, they need a serious talking to at the very least.

[lord_seagrave]

Mankind's ability now to prolong life (both at the beginning and end of life) does cause me to question the absolute beliefs that I hold.

 

LS

[BrowningB525]

I am quite black and white on this. I believe 100% that it's a woman's choice what happens with her body.

 

My wife is in the early stages if pregnancy, and if it had a disability, I'd hope my wife would abort.

[harpoonlouis]

I am thankful that I live in a society where, at least some, difficult decisions are left to individuals to make and aren't decided for them by the church or state. If there was a self evidently easy answer to all life's ills then we would all take it wouldn't we? But there isn't.

 

Abortion is a fact, it can't be made to go away so we regulate it as a compromise, ban it and we will have un-regulated abortion with the alternative misery that causes.

 

We have hospitals struggling to save babies pre term and another department aborting at almost the same gestation.....we do our best to draw a line between the two but it is always crossed in a small number of tragically difficult cases. As science improved we will have to shift that line at some point.

 

A few years ago we had a society that suggested parents give up disabled children and "moved on"..now we have champions of the World.

 

In my childhood the Catholic Church condemned unmarried mothers while keeping girls ignorant of their own biology a crime that still makes my blood boil but I won't go there.

 

Seems like we are just creeping slowly forwards trying to make slightly more rational rules up as we go along.

 

Progress , not perfection.

[Scully]

Good post. 👍

[lord_seagrave]

I am quite black and white on this. I believe 100% that it's a woman's choice what happens with her body.

 

My wife is in the early stages if pregnancy, and if it had a disability, I'd hope my wife would abort.

I have mixed, and rather cowardly views (hand-wringing liberal that I am).

 

I am clear that human life is sacred and that means all stages and quality of human life. Suffering, even agony, is to be borne as part of the experience of life.

 

BUT, whilst I hope that my view would be persuasive, I could not take that choice away from a mother.

 

Many years ago, a girlfriend and I conceived accidentally (unbeknownst to me) and she had an abortion (again, without my knowing). I still feel guilt over the destruction of that life, but, 'luckily' for me, I was spared the confrontation. Of course, I also feel guilt about that too.

 

I would have hoped that if I knew about the pregnancy, I would have tried earnestly to change her mind, even though the baby would (in earthly, first-world terms) have made our young lives very very difficult.

 

LS

[Scully]

 

I am clear that human life is sacred and that means all stages and quality of human life. Suffering, even agony, is to be borne as part of the experience of life.

 

 

 

I can agree that all human life is precious, and all that can be done to enhance and improve it, should be done. But once that 'quality' of life has gone, or didn't exist in the first place, then I think what's best for that person and the family, should be allowed to be considered by the family involved.

A friend had a daughter who suffered asphyxiation at the time of birth resulting in severe brain damage. She lived for eight years but existed as a non responsive vegetable basically, and needed constant 24/7 care where she was fed and changed, and bathed ( as she grew bigger mate had to build a special annexe which catered specifically for her, including specialist beds and lifting devices which ran on lines suspended from the ceilings so she could be transported via the various rooms of the house ) and despite being loved she was a constant drain on the health and well being of her mother who always looked haggard, drawn and stressed. Each bout of epileptic seizures reduced her mother to a wreck as there was nothing she could do to help. The effects on her were clearly visible.

Determined to live a normal life they had two more children, but holidays to a more or less extent were determined by how the eldest child was coping at that moment in time.

Her death following a massive epileptic seizure was devastating, especially for her mother, who witnessed it.

Life goes on; we have no choice, and the mother is a bright and breezy woman again, despite expressing with a smile, that she sometimes feels guilt for feeling this way. She has constantly been told she has nothing to feel guilty for; she loved that child with all her might and did everything she could for her.

It has never been voiced in hearing distance of them, and no one would ask, but the general consensus locally is that as awful as it sounds, it was a blessing. I have absolutely no doubt that if given the choice she would have her back, but she is in no doubt it would have effected her health and her quality of life, greatly.

What future would that girl have had, had she survived, and especially after her parents had gone? A huge responsibility would have been passed on to the lives of her brother and sister for the rest of their lives.

If that quality of life exists, then feed it. If not, whats the point?

When one of my children died as a baby due to underdeveloped lungs and the complications thereof, it soon became apparent that this wasn't his only problems, and I sometimes wonder what his quality of life would have been like. At the time all we wanted was for him to survive, but with the advantage of hindsight I can consider it a blessing. The only gripe I have regarding his death ( and which is also relevant within this topic ) is that after fighting to live for two months, our infuriatingly backward thinking, cowardly controlling laws meant he also had to fight to die. Not pleasant. Two weeks ago I had to have my little dog put to sleep; she had a more dignified and peaceful end than he did.

[Billy.]

The article skips over the first 16+ years of the disabled child's life, which usually involves one or both parents having to stop working and pile money and whatever grants and allowances they can get to help their child survive and have a normal, happy life. All in the hope that one day they will be self sufficient (if the disability is that severe). Then the one in a million chance that said child then becomes a Paralympian. Then if that does happen, the parents are left jobless, with 16 years or so of next to no career growth and ironically left with little to no job prospects.

 

Anyone who tells someone that they can't have an abortion or deny someone a right to die, based on their views, opinions or religion, are the lowest of the low come pretty low in my books. The anti abortion campaigners are more than happy to make people out to be scum, but I don't see them carrying on the support (financial or caring) for the baby once it's born, be it a disabled child or one born into poverty, drugs, alcoholics or rape victims.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Billy.

[keg]

I am thankful that I live in a society where, at least some, difficult decisions are left to individuals to make and aren't decided for them by the church or state. If there was a self evidently easy answer to all life's ills then we would all take it wouldn't we? But there isn't.

 

Abortion is a fact, it can't be made to go away so we regulate it as a compromise, ban it and we will have un-regulated abortion with the alternative misery that causes.

 

We have hospitals struggling to save babies pre term and another department aborting at almost the same gestation.....we do our best to draw a line between the two but it is always crossed in a small number of tragically difficult cases. As science improved we will have to shift that line at some point.

 

A few years ago we had a society that suggested parents give up disabled children and "moved on"..now we have champions of the World.

 

In my childhood the Catholic Church condemned unmarried mothers while keeping girls ignorant of their own biology a crime that still makes my blood boil but I won't go there.

 

Seems like we are just creeping slowly forwards trying to make slightly more rational rules up as we go along.

 

Progress , not perfection.

All good points, my foster sister was in a home for the first 3 years of her life because her mother was catholic and her father was pakistani.

[Scully]

The article skips over the first 16+ years of the disabled child's life, which usually involves one or both parents having to stop working and pile money and whatever grants and allowances they can get to help their child survive and have a normal, happy life. All in the hope that one day they will be self sufficient (if the disability is that severe). Then the one in a million chance that said child then becomes a Paralympian. Then if that does happen, the parents are left jobless, with 16 years or so of next to no career growth and ironically left with little to no job prospects.

 

Anyone who tells someone that they can't have an abortion or deny someone a right to die, based on their views, opinions or religion, are the lowest of the low come pretty low in my books. The anti abortion campaigners are more than happy to make people out to be scum, but I don't see them carrying on the support (financial or caring) for the baby once it's born, be it a disabled child or one born into poverty, drugs, alcoholics or rape victims.

 

Another very good post.

[NickS]

When my wife was pregnant, were told that, from the scans, it was highly likely that our son would have Downs Syndrome. There were further tests that would confirm this but they could trigger a miscarriage. We had already lost several babies at various stages and right away decided that we would deal with whatever we were given but I can absolutely understand how others may not have felt the same way in the circumstances. The only people qualified to begin to understand the potential effects are the parents themselves. The next few months were difficult but he was absolutely fine. Seeing him now, a fine young man, about to start his second year at Oxford, I am pleased that we never even considered the option. Had things turned out differently, I may be wondering if we were right. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I would never judge those who have to make very difficult choices.

[four-wheel-drive]

I am pleased that everything turned out good for you and your boy.

[islandgun]

When my wife was pregnant, were told that, from the scans, it was highly likely that our son would have Downs Syndrome. There were further tests that would confirm this but they could trigger a miscarriage. We had already lost several babies at various stages and right away decided that we would deal with whatever we were given but I can absolutely understand how others may not have felt the same way in the circumstances. The only people qualified to begin to understand the potential effects are the parents themselves. The next few months were difficult but he was absolutely fine. Seeing him now, a fine young man, about to start his second year at Oxford, I am pleased that we never even considered the option. Had things turned out differently, I may be wondering if we were right. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I would never judge those who have to make very difficult choices.

brilliant

[Scully]

When my wife was pregnant, were told that, from the scans, it was highly likely that our son would have Downs Syndrome. There were further tests that would confirm this but they could trigger a miscarriage. We had already lost several babies at various stages and right away decided that we would deal with whatever we were given but I can absolutely understand how others may not have felt the same way in the circumstances. The only people qualified to begin to understand the potential effects are the parents themselves. The next few months were difficult but he was absolutely fine. Seeing him now, a fine young man, about to start his second year at Oxford, I am pleased that we never even considered the option. Had things turned out differently, I may be wondering if we were right. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I would never judge those who have to make very difficult choices.

Good for you, sincerely. 👍

[NickS]

Thanks. I really feel for parents faced with a decision like that and I would certainly not condem them, whatever they decide.