Newbie question re 65mm cases

[CaptainBeaky]

OK, I've used the search function, but my Google-fu appears to not be as strong as usual!

 

Thinking of starting reloading, chiefly so I can use the sbs I've just picked up from bruno22rf, which is black powder proof only (wabbitbosher's Belgian Purdey-ish hammer gun).

 

Hmmmm - don't need an explosives cert for Pyrodex - how difficult can it be? Yes, I know it would be cheaper to get it re-proofed for nitro, but where's the fun in that?

 

So, my first question - will something like a Lee Loadall cope with 65mm cases, or will I need something expensively exotic to even consider it? (In which case, let's look up the number for the London Proof House!)

 

Any suggestions as to how to go about this? All the websites I have found so far refer almost exclusively to 2 3/4" and larger cases.

 

 

Thanks in advance

Edited December 7, 2016 by CaptainBeaky

[wigeon jim]

The lee loadall will do 65m cases with a spacer under the pre and final crimp stations, did it with a 16g loadall. Jim.

[CaptainBeaky]

The lee loadall will do 65m cases with a spacer under the pre and final crimp stations, did it with a 16g loadall. Jim.

 

Is it as simple as that?

[deershooter]

A lee loadall won't have powder bushes large enough to use pryodox you will have to hand weigh or make a scoop

[CaptainBeaky]

All good information coming here

 

Would I get enough Pyrodex in a 65mm case?

 

Edit - OK, that probably is a silly question!

Edited December 7, 2016 by CaptainBeaky

[deershooter]

I'm not an expert in black powder/

Pryodox but it's loaded by volume not weight pryodox Rs is about 70 grains to the Oz but check proper data before using this info

[bruno22rf]

I seem to recall that BP/Pyrodex is loaded by volume and that such propellants work best as a "square" load i.e. if you want to throw a 1oz load you simply cut down a cartridge until it holds 1oz of shot - you can then use this cartridge as a measure for your powder as well?

[Velocette]

I seem to recall that BP/Pyrodex is loaded by volume and that such propellants work best as a "square" load i.e. if you want to throw a 1oz load you simply cut down a cartridge until it holds 1oz of shot - you can then use this cartridge as a measure for your powder as well?

 

That's what I do,,,you have to mess about a little getting the wad and card heights right but if you RTO your cases at 2 9/16" length everything will squeeze in. If you want an RTO machine I was given one recently which I'm happy to pass on for the cost of postage.

[CaptainBeaky]

 

That's what I do,,,you have to mess about a little getting the wad and card heights right but if you RTO your cases at 2 9/16" length everything will squeeze in. If you want an RTO machine I was given one recently which I'm happy to pass on for the cost of postage.

PM sent

[Guest cookoff013]

use a scoop honey.

 

find some data, that someone has. that would allow you to at least get close to buying the right components.

as for the square load bit, i`m sure that there are instances that contradict this, and some that support it.

the lead shot would be loaded by weight, buy measured by weight or volume, that means a scale or another scoop.

 

my advice would be to read some more. maybe dedicated material.

 

if i could just ask the internet every question, why would i need to bother doing some legwork myself?

 

- my only negative opinion, would be is that google isnt the only resource in the world.

[CaptainBeaky]

use a scoop honey.

 

Good idea, dear

 

find some data, that someone has. that would allow you to at least get close to buying the right components.

as for the square load bit, i`m sure that there are instances that contradict this, and some that support it.

the lead shot would be loaded by weight, buy measured by weight or volume, that means a scale or another scoop.

 

my advice would be to read some more. maybe dedicated material.

 

if i could just ask the internet every question, why would i need to bother doing some legwork myself?

 

- my only negative opinion, would be is that google isnt the only resource in the world.

Can't search for a lot of this stuff at work, due to firewall rules. Yes, Google isn't ideal, but it's a good place to start - that is exactly how I would *start* a literature search for a work project. There is also a large pool of experience on pw, which would be foolish to ignore.

 

Any suggestions for good books on the subject?

Edited December 8, 2016 by CaptainBeaky

[Feltwad]

These are the tools you only need for volume loads od powder

Tools for black powder cartidges

 

Edited December 8, 2016 by Feltwad

[CaptainBeaky]

Ok, so that is:

Capper/de-capper

RTO machine

Powder/shot measure

Powder

Shot

Primers

Paper cases

 

Anything I've missed?

[Evilv]

I'm really interested in this. I just bought some pyrodex and primers at the local gunsmiths and I ordered some shot and over powder wads which haven't arrived yet.

 

So far, I just dismantled a few Lavalle Express 29gm loads and replaced the powder with pyrodex (Just messing while my mail order package gets here).

 

I made a shot / powder measure from a cut down cartridge to handle the measured shot load from the dismantled cartridge and used that to measure the square load of powder.

 

I trimmed off the crimp part of the cartridge by putting a dowel inside and using a sharp knife to run around the edge of the crimp.

 

Obviously, the pyrodex takes up a much bigger space than the nitro powder that I took out, so the plastic wad had to be cut down by removing the foldable legs on it.

 

I placed a hand cut, thin card over the powder and pressed it down with a dowel in the already capped (new) case. I then put in the base seal off the cut down plastic wad and the shot cup. This more or less looked about right for the case.

 

I then poured in the factory measured shot charge and pressed a hand cut card over the top using the dowel from before.

 

The card was glued into the cartridge mouth using white glue.

 

 

On firing, the charge went off as expected. Big bang, cloud of smoke and a surprisingly good pattern at thirty yards out of my half choke right hand barrel. Delighted. Went off to have a go at some pheasants. Had a shot and the desired result was achieved. Came down smartly and expired as I approached it.

 

Unfortunately - my efforts are not satisfactory. After firing the right barrel, I heard the shot running down the left barrel from the second, unfired cartridge as I lowered the muzzles. The over-shot card was dislodged by the recoil of the first barrel firing.

 

Could be the card I had cut was too thin and fragile.

Could be the glue could not get hold of the smooth inside of the new case.

Could be the Youtube, backwoodsmen videos showing how they glue over-shot wads with pine sap, or wax or white wood glue know something I don't.

 

Anyway - this is certainly something I'm going to work on. GREAT fun - even the clean up was fun, though made a wee but easier by firing a cheapo cartridge up each tube at the end of the afternoon. This blew most of the fouling out of the muzzles. (This is NOT an old BP proofed gun).

 

Any advice on how to make a secure over-shot closure without any proper tools will be much appreciated.

 

Something else I am wondering is whether I can use a small patch of crumpled newspaper as a cushion wad on top of a nitro card. There are videos on Youtube showing people doing that. The fibre cushion wads are ridiculously expensive I think. I used to do muzzle loading and used patches of newspaper about 2 or 3 inches square as wadding. It worked back then in the 1980s when I was doing it. If you think that is crazy, let me know.

 

Thanks

Edited December 11, 2016 by Evilv

[Old farrier]

Ok, so that is:

Capper/de-capper

RTO machine

Powder/shot measure

Powder

Shot

Primers

Paper cases

 

Anything I've missed?

 

Wads

over powder cards

Over shot cards

[CaptainBeaky]

Wads

over powder cards

Over shot cards

Oops - missed those out

Punched out of milk-carton type card?

 

Do I need to resize used cases like you do with brass cases?

[Old farrier]

Oops - missed those out

Punched out of milk-carton type card?

 

Do I need to resize used cases like you do with brass cases?

Just buy some until you're a bit more experienced

And get a reloading manual to read

 

Please bear in mind your loading explosive powder into a case to put in a gun

 

While it's not hard you do need to be precise and meticulous about it

 

The very nature of pyrodex tells me that your loading for a old gun

Suggest you try the loads in a modern one first

 

Be careful

Of

[CaptainBeaky]

Just buy some until you're a bit more experienced

And get a reloading manual to read

 

Please bear in mind your loading explosive powder into a case to put in a gun

 

While it's not hard you do need to be precise and meticulous about it

 

The very nature of pyrodex tells me that your loading for a old gun

Suggest you try the loads in a modern one first

 

Be careful

Of

Thanks OF - any suggestions as to a good manual?

Excellent idea testing in a modern gun first - the Baikal o/u should make a good test bed: if they don't fall under the "load a 20g into a 12g, followed by a 12g test, then should be safe enough to work up loads in.

 

Precise and meticulous - check. I'm a chemist...

 

Thanks for all the help - I have a suspicion this may be addictive!

[Evilv]

@Captain Beaky

 

I made up some 12bore 29 gram 'square loads' last week out of unfired pigeon cartridges. In case you don't know, 'square load' means same volume of shot and powder (pyrodex).

 

Pyrodex is used at the same volume as black powder not weight. It is less dense than black powder, but volume for volume similar in power and pressure.

 

I opened a new cartridge and extracted the shot and powder and disposed of the nitro powder and I weighed the shot at 29 grams which was dead on what it was supposed to be. I poured the shot into a used case to make my powder measure and marked it carefully at the shot level in the case.

 

Then I cut the case off at that line and checked again that the volume of shot would just fit in the cut case powder /shot measure/

 

If you then use that case to measure your powder you have the 'square load' which a lot of people use. Same measure for powder and shot. THIS ONLY APPLIES TO BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX TYPE SUBSTITUTES. Nitro powders never can be used like that.

 

When I tested this Pyrodex load side by side with the original 29 gram un-tampered pigeon loads with nitro powder, it felt lighter in recoil than the nitro load, but was very satisfactory against the cock pheasant I shot with it at about 30 yards.

 

 

If I was using an old gun, I'd certainly keep the shot load and powder load light and square loads like I describe and for sure test them in a modern gun. 29 grams is just on the ounce.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Evilv

[bruno22rf]

Equivalent BP loads will feel less punchy than Nitro simply because of the much slower burn rate - those accustomed to using BP will be familiar with the gentle thump of the powder. Cannot understand why you would use plastic wads when fibre wads are cheap and available in various lengths - Evilv - if you want some decent overshot wads just pm me your address and I will post you some.

Edited December 12, 2016 by bruno22rf

[Evilv]

Equivalent BP loads will feel less punchy than Nitro simply because of the much slower burn rate - those accustomed to using BP will be familiar with the gentle thump of the powder. Cannot understand why you would use plastic wads when fibre wads are cheap and available in various lengths - Evilv - if you want some decent overshot wads just pm me your address and I will post you some.

 

Thanks bruno22rf. That's a kind offer.

 

I am waiting for some wads to come from Clay & Game. I ordered a sample of 1kg of shot and wads last week. I'm not sure how long they take to post stuff out. No word since I paid on their site. I didn't want to commit to 7KG tub until I am sure I am going to continue with the black powder shotgunning. I still have my old 1980s black powder box, but like many things in this sport the rules seem to have changed and I may need a plywood one far more fancy than is really needed for a person to keep a couple of pounds of Black Powder.... The Pyrodex seems fine. It may be more expensive, but I can get it locally and If I was ordering real BP from Kranks, although it seems very cheap, I think the delivery charge would be ridiculous.

 

I used the plastic wads because I was just experimenting with a cartridge that I dismantled while my shot and wad order was being processed. I just wanted to have a crack at it. I actually think the plastic shot cup helped make the pattern more dense than I would have got with fibre wads.

 

I used to shoot a Parker Hale rifled musket in .577 thirty some years ago, and an Italian repro Colt Navy (might have been the 1858 or was it 1851 model - I can't remember exactly. I also had a .44 or .45 Kentucky rifle lookalike thing in smooth bore, but I didn't keep that for long. It was too small for a shotgun and too inaccurate to shoot at the rifle range at 100 yards. It was waste of money.

 

 

Well - I'm off to the farm in about an hour so I'd better get going.... There is a fat cock pheasant waiting for me somewhere I am hoping.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Evilv

[bruno22rf]

I also used to own a .45 BP Kentucky rep - walnut stock with brass furniture - looked the business but I swear it was built by the RSPCA- no matter what shot loads or what distance I never once managed to kill anything with it

[Evilv]

I also used to own a .45 BP Kentucky rep - walnut stock with brass furniture - looked the business but I swear it was built by the RSPCA- no matter what shot loads or what distance I never once managed to kill anything with it

 

LOL - Tell me about it, but I did once shoot a young rabbit with mine. It might have been about 1981, I can still remember it. I was hiding behind a stone byre on the side of the Cheviots, and I saw this miserable rabbit begging me to take him away from the horrible Somme-like mud and wet. I aimed, pulled the trigger and the thing went off. After the smoke cleared and I got my bearings, there he was - dead as a door nail. I don't think that thing killed anything else, but it did encourage me to get the Enfield musket which would group easily at 3 inches at a hundred yards. I doubt I can do better with any rifle with open sights like those.

 

Had a great day out today. Got one nice cock pheasant and missed another behind.

 

Hoping to get my shot and wads soon from the suppliers.