Spring Budget 2017

[achosenman]

To be fair, those in your game are quite a bit different to small business, self funding, self-employed people. For a start the renumeration annually is substantially less for most (see almost all) other sectors. When you're already operating and surviving on small margins I don't think this is a great move. No sick pay, no holiday pay, no guaranteed minimum wage, you can't really up your rates to compensate for the increase and for most sectors there isn't a substantial 'increase' in rates between those doing the job as employees as opposed to those self employed.

 

Whichever way you look at it its a bad move for the small, independent and genuinely self-employed and one that won't play well when election time comes around.

 

Close the loophole to those abusing the system by all means, but to punish all those that genuinely work for themselves seems a bit too much stick and not enough carrot.

 

Rant mode on

 

Except that we all know how much fiddling goes on. I get bent over each month by HMRC because I'm PAYE and a higher rate tax payer. I got an unsolicited glossy info pack from them the other day, showing me where my £50k annual tax contribution is squandered. Not impressed.

 

Before anyone jumps in and claims I am wrong, I have family members who are self employed in the building trade, and one who run's a limited company in the same sector. I personally own and run a small limited company in my local town, and cash is king in that trade. The fiddling is so endemic people don't even realise they are doing it. Both the ladies who work for me are on the books. It costs my company a bit more, but I don't see why everyone shouldn't pay a fair share into the system like the rest of us PAYE schmucks.

 

Rant mode off

[old'un]

 

Rant mode on

 

Except that we all know how much fiddling goes on. I get bent over each month by HMRC because I'm PAYE and a higher rate tax payer. I got an unsolicited glossy info pack from them the other day, showing me where my £50k annual tax contribution is squandered. Not impressed.

 

Before anyone jumps in and claims I am wrong, I have family members who are self employed in the building trade, and one who run's a limited company in the same sector. I personally own and run a small limited company in my local town, and cash is king in that trade. The fiddling is so endemic people don't even realise they are doing it. Both the ladies who work for me are on the books. It costs my company a bit more, but I don't see why everyone shouldn't pay a fair share into the system like the rest of us PAYE schmucks.

 

Rant mode off

There's a lot of cash jobs being done by small traders and none of it ever sees any paper work, (back pocket money)

[sportsbob]

Typically the people that run limited companies do it because it distances them from there liabilities and increases there income, the same people moan about the fact they are in the high tax bracket. These people would not be in the higher tax bracket if they did not earn a substantial profit, these same people drive top spec cars and live in nice houses. These "Business owners" and "company directors" are not the "self employed" persons I and others are referring too as pointed out several times. The building trade is rife with fiddles and overpayment for shoddy work, the genuine self employed ie plumber, sparkie, aerial rigger, motor mechanic etc and not working on contract in the building trade are the people being hit the hardest.

[old'un]

Typically the people that run limited companies do it because it distances them from there liabilities and increases there income, the same people moan about the fact they are in the high tax bracket. These people would not be in the higher tax bracket if they did not earn a substantial profit, these same people drive top spec cars and live in nice houses. These "Business owners" and "company directors" are not the "self employed" persons I and others are referring too as pointed out several times. The building trade is rife with fiddles and overpayment for shoddy work, the genuine self employed ie plumber, sparkie, aerial rigger, motor mechanic etc and not working on contract in the building trade are the people being hit the hardest.

Anyone can have "Ltd" after their name, it does not automatically make you a rich directors driving flashy cars and on a high salary, being a Sole Trader or a Ltd business, both have there good and bad points......http://www.rossmartin.co.uk/starting-in-business-77750/140-sole-trader-v-limited-company-key-tax-a-legal-differences

[achosenman]

Typically the people that run limited companies do it because it distances them from there liabilities and increases there income, the same people moan about the fact they are in the high tax bracket. These people would not be in the higher tax bracket if they did not earn a substantial profit, these same people drive top spec cars and live in nice houses. These "Business owners" and "company directors" are not the "self employed" persons I and others are referring too as pointed out several times. The building trade is rife with fiddles and overpayment for shoddy work, the genuine self employed ie plumber, sparkie, aerial rigger, motor mechanic etc and not working on contract in the building trade are the people being hit the hardest.

 

This business owner paid for and started the company out of his own money. He also gets nothing from the company, despite doing all the admin. The reason it's a Ltd company is as you say, I don't want to get saddled with 10 years commercial unit rental payments IF it goes wrong. A mate of mine got royally shafted by a landlord to the tune of £270k when his small company ceased trading.

 

I started my business to hopefully get my partner a pension income when she retires. She has worked 30 plus years in her trade and had nothing to show for it. I put her on the books and put the other staff member on as well. I might just someday get my money back without interest. Hopefully my partner has an income into retirement and beyond. The additional staff members that may be employed when/if we expand, will be a win for the employee and HMRC, not me.

 

Lets talk about the genuine sparkie etc. They would be the ones offering discount for cash yes? Like the man with a van that came to my house to fix a wheel. He took cash and never gave an invoice. I bet HMRC won't get told about that little back pocket job.

 

As I said it's rife. We haven't even touched on the little scams that get claimed for each year.

 

Like I said, everyone should pay a fair share.

Edited March 9, 2017 by achosenman

[sportsbob]

I run a business and I have done so for nearly 30 years , virtually all the Ltd company directors I have met fall into the criteria I have outlined. Your mate did not get shafted at all he simply was made to stand by his commitment and honor his obligation.

[sportsbob]

Quote "Lets talk about the genuine sparkie etc. They would be the ones offering discount for cash yes? Like the man with a van that came to my house to fix a wheel. He took cash and never gave an invoice. I bet HMRC won't get told about that little back pocket job."

 

Perhaps you should have asked for an invoice or were you aware it was on the cheap.

Edited March 9, 2017 by sportsbob

[achosenman]

I run a business and I have done so for nearly 30 years , virtually all the Ltd company directors I have met fall into the criteria I have outlined. Your mate did not get shafted at all he simply was made to stand by his commitment and honor his obligation.

 

Sorry you can't know the situation so aren't in a position to pass judgment. When I say shafted, he was shafted end of.

 

As always, sweeping generalisations don't stand up under scrutiny.

 

Hammond rightly pointed out the inequities of the NIC's made by certain sections of society. I and many others have known the truth for some time, and TBH the unfairness of it rankled.

 

I don't mind paying more because I earn more, it's only right. However, I do know what the real net income is for those self employed people I personally know. It's very close to me...the difference is, I pay a huge amount into the government coffers and they pay lip service.

[BrowningB525]

Typically the people that run limited companies do it because it distances them from there liabilities and increases there income, the same people moan about the fact they are in the high tax bracket. These people would not be in the higher tax bracket if they did not earn a substantial profit, these same people drive top spec cars and live in nice houses. These "Business owners" and "company directors" are not the "self employed" persons I and others are referring too as pointed out several times. The building trade is rife with fiddles and overpayment for shoddy work, the genuine self employed ie plumber, sparkie, aerial rigger, motor mechanic etc and not working on contract in the building trade are the people being hit the hardest.

 

Hit by a £240 per year additional tax bill.

[achosenman]

Quote "Lets talk about the genuine sparkie etc. They would be the ones offering discount for cash yes? Like the man with a van that came to my house to fix a wheel. He took cash and never gave an invoice. I bet HMRC won't get told about that little back pocket job."

 

Perhaps you should have asked for an invoice or were you aware it was on the cheap.

 

It wasn't on the cheap. It was the same price as Chips Away.

[sportsbob]

 

Hit by a £240 per year additional tax bill.

Sorry but I don`t understand you post.

 

It wasn't on the cheap. It was the same price as Chips Away.

Ahh I see you paid someone to repair the paintwork on you car wheels, is it a nice car?

[BrowningB525]

 

Sorry you can't know the situation so aren't in a position to pass judgment. When I say shafted, he was shafted end of.

 

As always, sweeping generalisations don't stand up under scrutiny.

 

Hammond rightly pointed out the inequities of the NIC's made by certain sections of society. I and many others have known the truth for some time, and TBH the unfairness of it rankled.

 

I don't mind paying more because I earn more, it's only right. However, I do know what the real net income is for those self employed people I personally know. It's very close to me...the difference is, I pay a huge amount into the government coffers and they pay lip service.

 

 

I agree with this completely. I am an engineering consultant, and work with a lot of contract staff. There are a lot on contract who earn triple my hourly rate (admittedly they don't have a company pension etc) . A lot of them put it through a limited company to further reduce their tax burden paying themselves dividends. It is also worth mentioning that arguably sick pay etc is built into the hourly rate for contract staff.

 

All this budget has done is tightened (not closed) this loophole. Making it slightly fairer on PAYE earners. Operating as an LTD company is still more tax efficient.

 

For genuine self employed workers, it will increase their tax burden slightly. Not enough to have a significant negative impact though adding say 20p onto their hourly rate would more than cover their hourly rate.

[Scully]

I sub' to a company I used to work for cards in; their choice not mine. I like being self-employed as it gives me the freedom to choose when I work and when I don't. The drawback is no sick or holiday pay; I can't recall the last time I phoned in sick. A mate who is employed is off sick at the drop of a hat.

I also paint ( both fine art and decorative painting ) and have never ever offered a discount for cash, but am very very often asked after submitting a quote or estimate 'how much for cash?' usually by wealthy farmers and landowners, and especially their wives.

[BrowningB525]

Sorry but I don`t understand you post.

 

£240 is the average NI hike for self employed people. You talk about people being hit the hardest. I was putting it into perspective.

[sportsbob]

 

£240 is the average NI hike for self employed people. You talk about people being hit the hardest. I was putting it into perspective.

Thanks

[sportsbob]

I sub' to a company I used to work for cards in; their choice not mine. I like being self-employed as it gives me the freedom to choose when I work and when I don't. The drawback is no sick or holiday pay; I can't recall the last time I phoned in sick. A mate who is employed is off sick at the drop of a hat.

I also paint ( both fine art and decorative painting ) and have never ever offered a discount for cash, but am very very often asked after submitting a quote or estimate 'how much for cash?' usually by wealthy farmers and landowners, and especially their wives.

 

Exactly , the more they have the more they expect and the more you give the more they take the mickey.

Edited March 9, 2017 by sportsbob

[achosenman]

 

Ahh I see you paid someone to repair the paintwork on you car wheels, is it a nice car?

 

It is the car I wanted. I don't have children or a wife. ( Got an ex though ) My girlfriend is not half my age. I have worked continually since I left full time education. I have served my county in HM forces. The training for my career change was paid for by me by saving over the years. I live in an end of terrace house. I don't smoke, drink to excess or gamble, but I still enjoy shooting. I don't take fancy holidays since I spend my day job travelling around the World. I have private healthcare so don't use the NHS. As higher rate tax payer, I think it's safe to say I'm a net contributor to society. I'm now in a position where at the age of 55 I'm seriously considering retiring on my private pension.

 

Tell me why shouldn't I have a nice car?

[sportsbob]

I have no objection to you personally in fact according to what you have just said you personally don`t fit into the criteria I was describing so we have no argument.

[achosenman]

I have no objection to you personally in fact according to what you have just said you personally don`t fit into the criteria I was describing so we have no argument.

 

That's good TBH, I have no argument with you.

 

I have spent a lifetime paying into the system and I agree, there should be incentives. But when the system is being blatantly played, that needs addressing.

[Lloyd90]

Something that really winds me up in the local authorities is the people who have 6 months full pay on the sick, come back for a week then go off for another 6 months, they come back so they do t go into half pay.

 

Also the same people having illnesses that are medically in dispute ATM because they are noted as conditions that can not be proved and are often diagnosed by people pestering their doctors for years or months.

 

Think one of the top bosses told me that taking into account sick pay, holiday pay, pensions etc its cheaper to pay consulatants, as you only have to get a consultant in to do the work for the people off sick anyways, your not allowed to employ someone else because the person abusing the sick will complain you've replaced them.

[Velocette]

Something that really winds me up in the local authorities is the people who have 6 months full pay on the sick, come back for a week then go off for another 6 months, they come back so they do t go into half pay.

 

Also the same people having illnesses that are medically in dispute ATM because they are noted as conditions that can not be proved and are often diagnosed by people pestering their doctors for years or months.

 

Think one of the top bosses told me that taking into account sick pay, holiday pay, pensions etc its cheaper to pay consulatants, as you only have to get a consultant in to do the work for the people off sick anyways, your not allowed to employ someone else because the person abusing the sick will complain you've replaced them.

 

Do you have an example of that,,because I think you will find that the 6 months full pay is the maximum in one 12 month period. I have dealt with this exact matter on occasion and the circumstances you cite are a common urban legend ! Occupational Health departments would be on the case swiftly.

[Davyo]

Something that really winds me up in the local authorities is the people who have 6 months full pay on the sick, come back for a week then go off for another 6 months, they come back so they do t go into half pay.

 

Also the same people having illnesses that are medically in dispute ATM because they are noted as conditions that can not be proved and are often diagnosed by people pestering their doctors for years or months.

 

Think one of the top bosses told me that taking into account sick pay, holiday pay, pensions etc its cheaper to pay consulatants, as you only have to get a consultant in to do the work for the people off sick anyways, your not allowed to employ someone else because the person abusing the sick will complain you've replaced them.

It doesn't work like that and im assuming most employers operate the same procedures re sickness.,We have this at HMRC, and although you get full pay for 6mths, you just cant come back and start all over again.You go on a stage 2 disciplinary with a period of monitored absence of the next twelve months.If your off during this period you go on a stage 1 for concern and then dismissed. Those that abuse it are usually looking for dismissal on ill health, those that don't meet the ill health criteria are simply dismissed(sacked)

Edited March 9, 2017 by Davyo

[Lloyd90]

It doesn't work like that and im assuming most employers operate the same procedures re sickness.,We have this at HMRC, and although you get full pay for 6mths, you just cant come back and start all over again.You go on a stage 2 disciplinary with a period of monitored absence of the next twelve months.If your off during this period you go on a stage 1 for concern and then dismissed. Those that abuse it are usually looking for dismissal on ill health, those that don't meet the ill health criteria are simply dismissed(sacked)

The woman I directly know who is doing it has had approx 6 years off sick in 11 years service.

 

I was surprised to hear the same as you regarding the 1,2,3,4 and your out rule in other departments of the council, but obviously the manager in this one department was terrible, did very little himself and generally didn't care I think.

 

She has also done several other things that are sackable offences, such as spout off a rant about how she doesn't agree with homosexual relationships and how wrong it is in the equalities training and also accused one of our kids of theft of her iPad only to later find it in her own bag and tear the pages out of the log book (an official document)

 

She still works there. I'm glad I'm moving on to better things.

[Davyo]

The woman I directly know who is doing it has had approx 6 years off sick in 11 years service.

 

I was surprised to hear the same as you regarding the 1,2,3,4 and your out rule in other departments of the council, but obviously the manager in this one department was terrible, did very little himself and generally didn't care I think.

 

She has also done several other things that are sackable offences, such as spout off a rant about how she doesn't agree with homosexual relationships and how wrong it is in the equalities training and also accused one of our kids of theft of her iPad only to later find it in her own bag and tear the pages out of the log book (an official document)

 

She still works there. I'm glad I'm moving on to better things.

I'm surprised the manager hasn't been disciplined as HR is obviously not been following.Where I work at HMRC there is no sympathy regarding how poorly an employee is.Its the same disaplinary route whether you have a simple flue or terminal cancer.

HMRC even make the employee come in for disciplinary meet at 12 weeks,failing your attendance they come to your home and interview you about your illness.

Hence not many I'm my office have abused the 6mth full pay thing.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Davyo

[mick miller]

I don't get paid 'cash in hand', most self employed people I know don't want to be either. Cash is no longer King, in fact, it's a royal pain the bum. Try finding ways to 'hide' cash without declaring it that a revenue inspection won't throw up, there really isn't very much at all. Running your car? Don't be collecting coupons or points... A revenue inspection is a thing of real dread. I've known a couple of 'chancers' that played fast and loose with cash payments and the revenue uncovered all sorts. Don't fancy that myself to be honest.

 

I looked at the increase and whilst I think the sentiment behind it is utterly flawed, the revenue it will generate tiny and the powers that be would be better served chasing corporate tax evasion, it's such a small amount annually I can't actually be bothered to moan about it any further.

Edited March 9, 2017 by mick miller