Shotshell Reloading your Thoughts?

[Simuk]

Ok guys i was at our club shoot on Saturday, I brought the 12 bore and the 20 bore.

 

I shoot exclusively Down the Line (i just like it)

 

I brought reloads for both gauges and my last box of cheapy 12 gauge 28 gram 71/2's

 

First two line i shot with the 20 bore - very forgettable shooting maybe hit half of the 20 bird lines

 

Then got the 12 gauge out, shot 3 lines with the reloads again useless, hitting maybe 12 or 13 out of the 20 bird lines.

 

Lastly i pulled out my cheapy Danarms 71/2's and yes you guessed it 19 of the 20 birds dusted (and i mean dusted)

 

 

Ok my reloads are using my own dropped shot, 26 grams in the 12 bore and 23 grams in the 20 bore.

 

Initial thoughts where....Stuff this i'm going back to shop bought ammo

 

On reflection this morning i thought, hang on i'm not going to be beaten this easily, so i'm now determined to make good ammo.

 

 

A few thought's i'm having please feel free to chime in :

 

1/ The shot is not perfectly round

 

2/ The shot is too soft

 

3/ There is not enough shot

 

4/ It's not the powder although upping the charge from 18.5 grains to 20.5 grain on the 12 bore seems to have created faster but worse hitting cartridges.

 

5/ Not the wads Gualandi Spark, or the Primers CCI.

 

 

 

Ok so i don't need the Haha homeloads are **** brigade ( most unhelpful)

 

I do need successful reloaders thoughts

[saddler]

I'd try different wads & possibly change the shot weight.

 

More trial & error involved in shotshell reloading than rifle or pistol, but still very worthwhile to pursue.

 

What dedicated shotshell reloading manual are you using?

Have you tried patterning your current reloads?

[turbo33]

Have you patterned your reloads? Checked speed? Its possible that the pattern is blowing from a higher speed/initial velocity........just a thought? Certainly, I get better patterns with a lower charge of sp3 in my 410 loads. Once I get closer to the max, the pattern suffers. I don't reload for clays, but do 32grm no6 felt for my 12 and 28grms no6 felt for my 20's, both driven by Vectan A1. I have great confidence in them now. Pull one of your danarms apart,and see if your shot matches theirs for shape etc. You might be surprised how poor some of the cheaper factory shot is. Of course, others is very good quality and makes sense it should throw a more uniform pattern.

Hope this helps.

[Guest cookoff013]

what are you loading?

what powder?

help us out buddy.

 

you only gave us half a story here..... give us the sugar.

[Simuk]

Using Vectan AS powder, I can get either that or AO easily locally.

 

I have 3000 Guilandi Spark wads so changing them will break my heart.

 

I think i'm going to try varying the powder and shot amount. I dissected a GB 7 1/2 that is the equivalent of the Danarms and the shot was 28 grams on the button and much more uniform than mine.

 

I seemed to have more success with the first batch of shot i made which was smaller probably 8-9 and 18.5 grains of Vectan AS, than the latest batch which is close to size 6 with 20.5 grains of Vectan AS

 

As for shotshell manuals they are kinda useless to me as i have a very limited pool of components

[Guest cookoff013]

ok, noble say 20 grains AS for an ounce. 680bars or so.

those sparks are good.

are you trying to recreate a new load? what is the recipe like with pressure? / speed? you are using.

did you weight correctly the bushing or did you put in a bushing because of a chart?

 

i get great patterns with slower loads.

verify weights of powder.

 

see if you can get more data with the components together,

[Simuk]

ok, noble say 20 grains AS for an ounce. 680bars or so.

those sparks are good.

are you trying to recreate a new load? what is the recipe like with pressure? / speed? you are using.

did you weight correctly the bushing or did you put in a bushing because of a chart?

 

i get great patterns with slower loads.

verify weights of powder.

 

see if you can get more data with the components together,

 

Not trying to create a new load, i used less shot because i'm tight (i know i'm making it, I must have a Scottish gene somewhere)

 

I have scoured the interwebs looking for AS load data and it's there from 24 grams to 32 grams of shot.

 

I'm also trying to keep my cartridge prices in line with cheap factory loads hence the lower amounts of powder used (also playing it safe regarding pressures)

 

I am happy to just try a published load and pattern it to see how it hits.

 

Speeds and pressure are another story as i have no way of testing those.

 

No one has mentioned the shot, is it unlikely to be the cause of the problem?

 

I have weighed my shot drops and know the weight is 26 grams from my scales, I also have used a separate powder measure and weighed that

 

On another note Vectan AS is a balls ache to get consistent powder drops from

Edited March 28, 2017 by Simuk

[Guest cookoff013]

 

Not trying to create a new load, i used less shot because i'm tight (i know i'm making it, I must have a Scottish gene somewhere)

 

I have scoured the interwebs looking for AS load data and it's there from 24 grams to 32 grams of shot.

 

I'm also trying to keep my cartridge prices in line with cheap factory loads hence the lower amounts of powder used (also playing it safe regarding pressures)

(you will never compete with factory offerings. give up chasing value shells.)

I am happy to just try a published load and pattern it to see how it hits.

 

Speeds and pressure are another story as i have no way of testing those.

 

No one has mentioned the shot, is it unlikely to be the cause of the problem?

 

I have weighed my shot drops and know the weight is 26 grams from my scales, I also have used a separate powder measure and weighed that

 

On another note Vectan AS is a balls ache to get consistent powder drops from

[neutron619]

 

I'm also trying to keep my cartridge prices in line with cheap factory loads hence the lower amounts of powder used (also playing it safe regarding pressures)

 

+1 to Cookoff's comment.

 

Two further thoughts.

 

1. Shotguns are extremely difficult to blow up without actually packing a case full of plastic explosive and detonating it. Ok, some 100+ year old Damascus guns might go bang if you put the wrong (over-)size cartridge in them and it's not impossible by any means, so you still need to be sensible, but if you're shooting the average Baikal, it'll never go bang, whatever you stuff into it. Unless you maybe bang it, barrel first into the floor, up to the forend, and then fire it.

 

2. Shot cartridges (I learnt this from cookoff) need enough pressure to make them work properly. Cutting powder down will often cause improper combustion and very strange effects on the pattern plate. E.g. 100% of the shot hitting the pattern plate in an area the size of a teaplate at 20 yards, followed by nothing at 30 yards because it's hit the floor before it got there. The answer to that particular problem is either faster powder, or more of the same powder. The short of it is that low velocities can make for extrmely tight - i.e. unusably tight - patterns because there is effectively no pellet deformation meaning the shot comes out in essentially a perfect ballistic arc without spreading out much.

 

So - have you patterned your shells? Since a miss tells you nothing, you need to see the effect of a hit on something which will survive long enough to see where the shot went. I suggest a cardboard box to start with.

 

Good luck

Edited March 28, 2017 by neutron619

[Simuk]

 

 

Not trying to create a new load, i used less shot because i'm tight (i know i'm making it, I must have a Scottish gene somewhere)

 

I have scoured the interwebs looking for AS load data and it's there from 24 grams to 32 grams of shot.

 

I'm also trying to keep my cartridge prices in line with cheap factory loads hence the lower amounts of powder used (also playing it safe regarding pressures)

(you will never compete with factory offerings. give up chasing value shells.)

I am happy to just try a published load and pattern it to see how it hits.

 

Speeds and pressure are another story as i have no way of testing those.

 

No one has mentioned the shot, is it unlikely to be the cause of the problem?

 

I have weighed my shot drops and know the weight is 26 grams from my scales, I also have used a separate powder measure and weighed that

 

On another note Vectan AS is a balls ache to get consistent powder drops from

 

 

Not really sure what that's supposed to mean. I drop my own shot and using said shot i can make shells for very slightly less than factory prices.

If you mean i will not be able to make a shell to compete with factory loads then i would rather fond out now than when i have sunk more money into reloading. I reload as a hobby and enjoy it but i want to make decent cartridges.

[Simuk]

 

+1 to Cookoff's comment.

 

Two further thoughts.

 

1. Shotguns are extremely difficult to blow up without actually packing a case full of plastic explosive and detonating it. Ok, some 100+ year old Damascus guns might go bang if you put the wrong (over-)size cartridge in them and it's not impossible by any means, so you still need to be sensible, but if you're shooting the average Baikal, it'll never go bang, whatever you stuff into it. Unless you maybe bang it, barrel first into the floor, up to the forend, and then fire it.

 

2. Shot cartridges (I learnt this from cookoff) need enough pressure to make them work properly. Cutting powder down will often cause improper combustion and very strange effects on the pattern plate. E.g. 100% of the shot hitting the pattern plate in an area the size of a teaplate at 20 yards, followed by nothing at 30 yards because it's hit the floor before it got there. The answer to that particular problem is either faster powder, or more of the same powder. The short of it is that low velocities can make for extrmely tight - i.e. unusably tight - patterns because there is effectively no pellet deformation meaning the shot comes out in essentially a perfect ballistic arc without spreading out much.

 

So - have you patterned your shells? Since a miss tells you nothing, you need to see the effect of a hit on something which will survive long enough to see where the shot went. I suggest a cardboard box to start with.

 

Good luck

 

Thank you for that, yep off to a clay ground at the weekend to pattern some carts. I don't mind one bit adding powder, taking powder away or any other component. I just do not want to have to buy factory shot as it makes reloading unviable

[saddler]

 

Not really sure what that's supposed to mean. I drop my own shot and using said shot i can make shells for very slightly less than factory prices.

If you mean i will not be able to make a shell to compete with factory loads then i would rather fond out now than when i have sunk more money into reloading. I reload as a hobby and enjoy it but i want to make decent cartridges.

May have referred to chasing the price of BUDGET cartridges, NOT the performance.

 

Most reloads WILL compete performance wise with the more expensive offerings....once you've sorted out the components.

 

Agree that cutting the powder charge too much can be detrimental.

 

Stick with it!

[neutron619]

 

Thank you for that, yep off to a clay ground at the weekend to pattern some carts. I don't mind one bit adding powder, taking powder away or any other component. I just do not want to have to buy factory shot as it makes reloading unviable

 

How many shells are you actually planning to load and shoot each week?

 

I'd hazard a guess that most people reload 12 gauge / 20 gauge either for the enjoyment of it or because they know exactly what they want and can't get it commercially. It's hard to find a niche where you can save money on those loads these days, as others have said. Probably only very light or very heavy loads with unusual shot sizes for both, particularly in 12 gauge. Most don't do it to save money.

 

That said, how many reloads have you factored into your calculations? I've tended to find 4-5 firings wear out most cases, with some splitting sooner and some lasting a little longer. Since the cartridge companies use new cases every time, you ought to be able to find your biggest saving - if any - by re-using cases several times. I'm not sure it'll add up to any real saving until you've gone through a lot of shells, when you factor in the 300-500 rounds you'll need to use to cover the cost of the equipment etc. but even if you do, I think I'd probably be considering carefully whether it was worth the faff and - don't forget - the cost of your time, if money is your only motivation.

 

Put it this way - I load a 39g/#5 12-gauge load for about £6-7/box, down from around £10-15 off the shelf (if you can find any at all). On the other hand, I buy the few 32g-36g shells I fire because a) I get through so few and b) there's no difficulty in getting exactly what I want, even at the small-ish shop down the road.

 

Commercial shells are perfectly good and can be very cheap, if you can easily obtain the load you want.

[saddler]

Most of my shotshell hulls are clay ground pick-ups = free.

[dipper]

I've always found shot hardness plays a very big part in good tight patterns . Take some shot out of a Danarm cartridge and put it in one of your home loads if it's not performing it's not your shot.Dipper.

[rbrowning2]

Given you are making your own shot you can save money loading 12ga and getting AS powder at the kg tub rate not the 500gm tubs.

 

For AS I would try 21grains for the 26gm of lead shot.

 

You need to eliminate the obvious so I would buy a few kg of quality commercial shot and then try your reloads with that.

As some have said it may be a good idea to pattern your home made shot and compare it with the commercial shot.

 

Also look at your crimp is weak and hence not allowing the pressure to build and hence efficiently burn all the powder.

[Simuk]

I've always found shot hardness plays a very big part in good tight patterns . Take some shot out of a Danarm cartridge and put it in one of your home loads if it's not performing it's not your shot.Dipper.

 

That's what i'm worried about, buying and adding lineotype would push the cost to above factory cartridges and whilst i do not reload to save money i'm not going to spend money to reload.

 

Good idea on the robbing shot from a couple of factory shells, don't know why i didn't think of that.

 

How many shells are you actually planning to load and shoot each week?

 

I'd hazard a guess that most people reload 12 gauge / 20 gauge either for the enjoyment of it or because they know exactly what they want and can't get it commercially. It's hard to find a niche where you can save money on those loads these days, as others have said. Probably only very light or very heavy loads with unusual shot sizes for both, particularly in 12 gauge. Most don't do it to save money.

 

That said, how many reloads have you factored into your calculations? I've tended to find 4-5 firings wear out most cases, with some splitting sooner and some lasting a little longer. Since the cartridge companies use new cases every time, you ought to be able to find your biggest saving - if any - by re-using cases several times. I'm not sure it'll add up to any real saving until you've gone through a lot of shells, when you factor in the 300-500 rounds you'll need to use to cover the cost of the equipment etc. but even if you do, I think I'd probably be considering carefully whether it was worth the faff and - don't forget - the cost of your time, if money is your only motivation.

 

Put it this way - I load a 39g/#5 12-gauge load for about £6-7/box, down from around £10-15 off the shelf (if you can find any at all). On the other hand, I buy the few 32g-36g shells I fire because a) I get through so few and b) there's no difficulty in getting exactly what I want, even at the small-ish shop down the road.

 

Commercial shells are perfectly good and can be very cheap, if you can easily obtain the load you want.

 

I don't reload to save money, but i refuse to pay more for shells and make them at the same time. If i can break even i'm happy to reload as i enjoy it

Given you are making your own shot you can save money loading 12ga and getting AS powder at the kg tub rate not the 500gm tubs.

 

For AS I would try 21grains for the 26gm of lead shot.

 

You need to eliminate the obvious so I would buy a few kg of quality commercial shot and then try your reloads with that.

As some have said it may be a good idea to pattern your home made shot and compare it with the commercial shot.

 

Also look at your crimp is weak and hence not allowing the pressure to build and hence efficiently burn all the powder.

 

My most useless shell is 26 grams with 20 -20.5 AS surely 1/2 grain won't make much difference?

[sitsinhedges]

How can it cost the same as factory shells if you make your own shot? Where are you getting your lead from? Linotype shouldn't cost that much more than scrap lead.

[Simuk]

How can it cost the same as factory shells if you make your own shot? Where are you getting your lead from? Linotype shouldn't cost that much more than scrap lead.

 

Lead is .22 range scrap and is free

 

Powder is £80/kg

Primers £40/1000

Wads work out 2p each

 

Powder roughly 11p

Primer 4p

Wad 2p

Shot & Shell Free

 

Total 17 pence a shell x 25 = £4.25 a box

 

Hull Superfast £180/1000 = £4.50 a box (as an example)

 

 

Powder plays a big part and is really the only place i can make savings

 

BUT i'm not looking to make saving's just not spend more than i can buy factory for

Edited March 28, 2017 by Simuk

[neutron619]

Powder plays a big part and is really the only place i can make savings

 

BUT i'm not looking to make saving's just not spend more than i can buy factory for

 

Well, my instinctive response to that is that it's probably not worth your while (or apparent frustration).

 

One can manufacture decent shells that perform as well as, or better than factory loads.

 

However, I doubt that anything you can make in 12 gauge, for £4.25 a box, will match or outperform a £4.25/box (or a £4.50/box) factory round.

 

I'm very happy to be proved wrong by your results, but my gut feeling is that there is less variation in factory rounds than in home loads, ergo, a cheap factory load is likely to perform better overall than a cheap home load.

 

Change gauge, or change weight of shot, or shot size, then sure, a cheap home load can and will probably outperform a cheap factory load, or offer you something that you can't otherwise buy.

 

For example: I load a 16 gauge round at half the commercial price and it works better in my gun than anything else - but that's because

a) there are fewer factory rounds I can get to give me a chance of finding one that patterns tighter / more evenly, and

b) manufacturers spend fewer pounds tuning 16 gauge loads which are still a relatively niche market than they do 12 gauge loads, which are not. I.e. why spend £10,000 worth of time tweaking a 16-gauge load - to establish your reputation for quality, consistency, etc. - if you're going to sell 100k of those, versus 10 million of a 12-gauge shell on which you could spend the same time / money?

 

I hope you find a cheap load for both of your guns that does what you want it to. I hope too that you ignore me and carry on reloading, and tinkering, simply because it's fun.

 

I fear however, that you won't be able to tell the difference until you step off the path well trod, so to speak.

 

Good luck

Edited March 28, 2017 by neutron619

[TIGHTCHOKE]

How much lead can you get for free from the range?

 

How much do you spend on gas melting it down and turning it in to pellets?

 

Sell it to the scrap man and use the money to buy your shells.

 

That's about the only way you will make any headway.

[MAB1954]

When I started loading I asked on here for a clay load for Vectan AS, advice was 21 grains AS and 24 grams lead shot. This load works for me as good as any from shop. Your powder charge seems light to me Clay & Game recipe for your Gualandi Spark wad says 21.5 grains AS and 24 gram lead shot in a 70mm case with a CX2000 primer.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited March 28, 2017 by MAB1954

[Simuk]

When I started loading I asked on here for a clay load for Vectan AS, advice was 21 grains AS and 24 grams lead shot. This load works for me as good as any from shop. Your powder charge seems light to me Clay & Game recipe for your Gualandi Spark wad says 21.5 grains AS and 24 gram lead shot in a 70mm case with a CX2000 primer.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks for that, i will give it a try

How much lead can you get for free from the range?

 

How much do you spend on gas melting it down and turning it in to pellets?

 

Sell it to the scrap man and use the money to buy your shells.

 

That's about the only way you will make any headway.

 

You are of course correct, but i want to be a reloader not a scrap dealer

[Simuk]

 

Well, my instinctive response to that is that it's probably not worth your while (or apparent frustration).

 

One can manufacture decent shells that perform as well as, or better than factory loads.

 

However, I doubt that anything you can make in 12 gauge, for £4.25 a box, will match or outperform a £4.25/box (or a £4.50/box) factory round.

 

I'm very happy to be proved wrong by your results, but my gut feeling is that there is less variation in factory rounds than in home loads, ergo, a cheap factory load is likely to perform better overall than a cheap home load.

 

Change gauge, or change weight of shot, or shot size, then sure, a cheap home load can and will probably outperform a cheap factory load, or offer you something that you can't otherwise buy.

 

For example: I load a 16 gauge round at half the commercial price and it works better in my gun than anything else - but that's because

a) there are fewer factory rounds I can get to give me a chance of finding one that patterns tighter / more evenly, and

b) manufacturers spend fewer pounds tuning 16 gauge loads which are still a relatively niche market than they do 12 gauge loads, which are not. I.e. why spend £10,000 worth of time tweaking a 16-gauge load - to establish your reputation for quality, consistency, etc. - if you're going to sell 100k of those, versus 10 million of a 12-gauge shell on which you could spend the same time / money?

 

I hope you find a cheap load for both of your guns that does what you want it to. I hope too that you ignore me and carry on reloading, and tinkering, simply because it's fun.

 

I fear however, that you won't be able to tell the difference until you step off the path well trod, so to speak.

 

Good luck

 

Sadly you may be right, i have spent a lot of time and energy as well as money setting up my reloading gear for Shotshells. If i didn't enjoy making them i would take the hit immediately and flog the lot. BUT i do enjoy it and all i'm asking is for a round that's as good as the cheap **** not the stuff the Elite boys with the 20k guns shoot.

I will persevere for now. Will try some different recipes whilst trying to keep my head and hands intact

 

Thanks for the support

When I started loading I asked on here for a clay load for Vectan AS, advice was 21 grains AS and 24 grams lead shot. This load works for me as good as any from shop. Your powder charge seems light to me Clay & Game recipe for your Gualandi Spark wad says 21.5 grains AS and 24 gram lead shot in a 70mm case with a CX2000 primer.

 

Hope this helps.

may i ask your own shot or factory shot?

[sitsinhedges]

 

Lead is .22 range scrap and is free

 

Powder is £80/kg

Primers £40/1000

Wads work out 2p each

 

Powder roughly 11p

Primer 4p

Wad 2p

Shot & Shell Free

 

Total 17 pence a shell x 25 = £4.25 a box

 

Hull Superfast £180/1000 = £4.50 a box (as an example)

 

 

Powder plays a big part and is really the only place i can make savings

 

BUT i'm not looking to make saving's just not spend more than i can buy factory for

 

You are being truly ripped off at those prices. You should be able to buy a suitable powder for under £40 a kilo, I was paying £37.50 for AS and primers should be around £30 per K. I was loading 20 gauge clay loads with home made shot and it was costing me around £80 per K all in.