training vid multiple dummies

[ips]

My attempt at multiple dummie training.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FGswfZRESCU&feature=youtu.be

[lee-kinsman]

She looks good Ian, I suspect she's of an age now where she knows all the possible combinations you could send her for the dummies.

She's a good dog who understands what you want and is happy to oblige. What else does anyone want. She makes it look easy and you have a nice relaxed manner.

Nice

👍🏿

[ips]

Thank you lee

That is most encouraging. Yes she will take direction to any combination. Did you notice that she turns to mark the overhead one as I mentioned in a previous post. I cant seem to fix this but as she doesn't run in I think I will have to live with it.

I noticed on play back that I give lot of verbal praise, I do this when beating as well but don't know I am doing it. I have been pulled up for it on another forum but I am loathe to change as its just natural to me and it doesn't seem to have anything but a desirable effect on her. Probably wouldn't go down well at a FT but that's not likely to happen 😁

Thanks again for kind comments it means a lot to me coming from someone experienced such as yourself 👍

Regards

Ian

[Danger-Mouse]

Nice little video.

 

I'm neither a trainer nor even a dog owner but I fail to see why anyone would criticise the verbal praise? You said "Good girl" once or twice after each retrieve, it hardly seems excessive and if it works for you and the dog then I don't see what difference it makes?

 

It seems to me you have a lovely, obedient, and well trained dog that you obviously have a great relationship with. I'd say keep doing what you're doing and ignore the criticism from that other place.

[ips]

Nice little video.

 

I'm neither a trainer nor even a dog owner but I fail to see why anyone would criticise the verbal praise? You said "Good girl" once or twice after each retrieve, it hardly seems excessive and if it works for you and the dog then I don't see what difference it makes?

 

It seems to me you have a lovely, obedient, and well trained dog that you obviously have a great relationship with. I'd say keep doing what you're doing and ignore the criticism from that other place.

Thanks DM, I appreciate it, I am still a relative novice at this lark not in the same league as Lee so its nice to get good feedback it keeps me motivated 👍 I was told it was too much and not the done thing and other beaters would be put off by my "good girls" blah blah but as you say it seems to do the trick andbit just seems natural for me to tell her she did good.

Thanks for kind words 👍

[lee-kinsman]

Thank you lee

That is most encouraging. Yes she will take direction to any combination. Did you notice that she turns to mark the overhead one as I mentioned in a previous post. I cant seem to fix this but as she doesn't run in I think I will have to live with it.

I noticed on play back that I give lot of verbal praise, I do this when beating as well but don't know I am doing it. I have been pulled up for it on another forum but I am loathe to change as its just natural to me and it doesn't seem to have anything but a desirable effect on her. Probably wouldn't go down well at a FT but that's not likely to happen 😁

Thanks again for kind comments it means a lot to me coming from someone experienced such as yourself 👍

Regards

Ian

Her turning to mark the retrieve isn't something I'd correct. It's a natural evolution that in my opinion shows the dogs experience. Both my spaniels stand to mark a flush, like you say she isn't running in so it's no problem. If anything it's to the advantage of you and the dog.

 

With regards to verbal praise. When training I think it's important to keep focussed on what your trying to achieve and you do, you have an excellent working cocker. The first ever trial I ran in I was criticised and "lost out" because I was to "noisy". (I've only ran in a handful) Since then I limit the amount of interacted verbal or whistle I give my dogs, because that's what is required in trials. However, it is crucial for a dog to understand "good girl/lad" especially when we need to affirm at distance that the dog is making the right decision and the dog needs that encouragement.

 

With regards to verbal and your dog, i would say your dog probably doesn't need that affirmation, certainly not in the environment you were demonstrating in, however, I can honestly say it isn't something that I noticed because it is pleasant and fitting. Your aren't bellowing or shouting but pleasantly communicating with your dog, letting her know she is pleasing to you.

Your dog work is good and demonstrates exactly the relationship handler and dog should have. Quality 👍🏿

[ips]

Wow.

I don't know how to respond. You have made my day Lee I am truly chuffed. 👍

Cheers

 

Insert big chuffed smiley thing

[WGD]

However, it is crucial for a dog to understand "good girl/lad" especially when we need to affirm at distance that the dog is making the right decision and the dog needs that encouragement.

 

 

 

I don't expect my dogs to need praise at distance to do what they've been trained to do; I've one here at the moment that does need it to go in the right direction and he's a long way from running in a trial for that reason alone, cracking dog otherwise.

 

But if you're not trialling then a bit of praise an encouragement, well what about it, you and the dog need to enjoy what you're doing. In training I still clap my hands and praise experienced dogs on the way back with a retrieve (in training) just because it makes us all feel good.

[ips]

Hi WGD

I am sure your right she probably doesn't need it per seh, its just something I do without knowing it I only notice it when I play vids back. I like to do vids every now and then as a sort of diary and also to watch so I can maybe see faults that I didn't notice at the time. I am never going to be good enough for FT so that's no issue. I suppose its just a habit now. I am happy with her she and I are further along than I ever imagined we would be so I cant be anything but happy.

Cheers

[WGD]

You do yourself a disservice, trials are not smoke and mirrors, just well trained Gundogs doing what they should and your dog is well trained. I don't know what it's like with game, guns, noise, mouth etc but you have her well trained in the schooling video you posted.

 

Most of all, enjoy your dog.

[ips]

Thank you WGD

She is soft mouthed as far as I can tell, she makes no noise in the field whatsoever although she did squeek once when over excited by high density of birds at the flush point when we first started on the big shoot, oh and following the squeek she ran in ...oops. No harm was done it was just as keeper said put your dogs in, phew 😁 I had some issues with gun sensitivity but only if I was shooting on a peg but I think / hope that's sorted now.

Cheers

[scotslad]

Just wondering if the folk who critise u for praising are also the 1's screaming there heads off as there dogs go awol?

 

Must admit i don't see any harm in it and can't see why it will make any odds in the beating line, but as others have said ur dog doesn't look like it needs it either when half way back.

 

Must admit i am gulity of the same thing too, althou i quite often praise the instant i think the dog has winded the bird/dummy esp if i have handled it to the area, (my idea is to encourage it follow its nose/line, but again don't think its really needed on a more experienced dog)

 

When i'm working my dogs i am quite vocal thou, esp sweeping thick cover/dark woods or very heavy cover crops more so the dogs can hear where i am as have seen them get lost and disoreinated before. I have seen my dogs get quite disorientated in heavy kale crops and i don't think they can clearly hear my whistle below the kale canopy at times (or possibly just ignoring me, again )

 

I mind on 1 big commercail shoot a very good FTW'ing dog went awol for an afternoon, must off been on a runner and got disorientated, handler was in bits fearing for it, incase stuck on a fence, but ur sweeping big black thick woods with no tracks/rides

[ips]

Hi scotslad

Nobody has ever mentioned it when beating, its a habit really I am not even aware of doing it. Thing is if I make a conscious decision to be quieter (for no particular reason) she may wonder why all of a sudden I have changed the way we interact 😞

 

I think I will just forget about it and carry on muddling along 😁

[motty]

The dog did well enough, but I would be interested to see the dog retrieving at a bit more distance.

[AVB]

You have done very well compared to my efforts. And I don't know how anybody could complain about your encouragement. I have never done trials but on the shoots that I shoot on I hear a lot more noise than that. If anybody criticised how I was working my dog they would get a flea in their ear. One of the benefits of being 'a Gun' I suppose.

[ips]

The dog did well enough, but I would be interested to see the dog retrieving at a bit more distance.

Thank you motty.

Now the following may be totally wrong, stupid even BUT as we primarily go beating and dogging in (with only the occasional day when she is on a peg) I thought that by keeping all my training within twenty five yards ish would ensure that she doesn't pull out, as in she will be accustomed to never being too far away from me. As I say that may be wrong but it kind of made sense in my mind for what I want from her.

She will go fifty sixty yards on a memory or seen if I send her out but on a blind with a dummy she usually stops at thirty yards ish but will go out further once I give her a "back" command. She did a very nice sixty plus yard blind retrieve of a cock pheasant at my syndicate last season but I was very lucky with the wind as she scented it very early and went like a rocket 😁

[ips]

You have done very well compared to my efforts. And I don't know how anybody could complain about your encouragement. I have never done trials but on the shoots that I shoot on I hear a lot more noise than that. If anybody criticised how I was working my dog they would get a flea in their ear. One of the benefits of being 'a Gun' I suppose.

Thank you AVB no one has ever mentioned it on the two shoots I beat on it just came up once in discussion on a forum and since then I notice it on play back but not at the time.

[motty]

Thank you motty.

Now the following may be totally wrong, stupid even BUT as we primarily go beating and dogging in (with only the occasional day when she is on a peg) I thought that by keeping all my training within twenty five yards ish would ensure that she doesn't pull out, as in she will be accustomed to never being too far away from me. As I say that may be wrong but it kind of made sense in my mind for what I want from her.

She will go fifty sixty yards on a memory or seen if I send her out but on a blind with a dummy she usually stops at thirty yards ish but will go out further once I give her a "back" command. She did a very nice sixty plus yard blind retrieve of a cock pheasant at my syndicate last season but I was very lucky with the wind as she scented it very early and went like a rocket

I see what you mean, but then again, for just beating and dogging in, your dog needn't be able to retrieve at all.

It can be difficult (in my limited experience) to get a dog to go back continuously without looking back to you. My dog was doing 200 yards on dummies, but since I have been taking him pigeon shooting, he does pop a bit now. Still, I would rather that than a dog that just ran on like a headless chicken.

[lee-kinsman]

Thank you motty.

Now the following may be totally wrong, stupid even BUT as we primarily go beating and dogging in (with only the occasional day when she is on a peg) I thought that by keeping all my training within twenty five yards ish would ensure that she doesn't pull out, as in she will be accustomed to never being too far away from me. As I say that may be wrong but it kind of made sense in my mind for what I want from her.

She will go fifty sixty yards on a memory or seen if I send her out but on a blind with a dummy she usually stops at thirty yards ish but will go out further once I give her a "back" command. She did a very nice sixty plus yard blind retrieve of a cock pheasant at my syndicate last season but I was very lucky with the wind as she scented it very early and went like a rocket 😁

Cockers in my opinion aren't long range dogs. They don't handle well at distance. That's not to say that they can't and won't. My cocker will take a blind as far as you'd like to push her but because of her size it becomes difficult.

 

For me the best place for a cocker is working under the gun flushing, stopping, retrieving. At this they are exceptional and very exciting.

[ips]

I see what you mean, but then again, for just beating and dogging in, your dog needn't be able to retrieve at all.

It can be difficult (in my limited experience) to get a dog to go back continuously without looking back to you. My dog was doing 200 yards on dummies, but since I have been taking him pigeon shooting, he does pop a bit now. Still, I would rather that than a dog that just ran on like a headless chicken.

That is very true motty. I initially trained on dummies for my own enjoyment and for her mental stimulation it was only later that the opportunity to do gundog stuff for real came along and I had to start doing other stuff like turn whistles and steady to flush. She only had the opportunity for a warm retrieve on our second season and will never forget how proud I was of her when she handled onto the fall and brought a cock pheasant as big as herself straight to hand 😁

 

Cant comment on lee's post as I don't know enough 👍

[scotslad]

While increasing distance is the obvious way to test ur dogs and make retrieves/drills like that harder (it also looks bloody great on videos too when ur dog flies back miles althou its also usually when the wheels fall off too )

 

If ur quite happy with the distance ur dog retrieves at and it can handle further back on the rare occasion its needed its hardly worth increasing ur distance massively.

But it always handy to have the extra distance in reserve so when ur asked to help the pickers up out finding odd birds u can handle ur dog straight to them

 

And to be fair wot others have said is spot on u don't general associate cockers with long handling

 

But u could easily make similar drill harder even by simple things like changing location if u always train dogs in the same field, adding extra cover, mixtures of cover, wind direction, mixing blinds with seen retrieves, even really hiding blinds under cover so the dog really has to work for it,, even small obsticles/ditches for dog to pass over.

Theres probaly a load more small things i haven't thought off too.

 

While a 100m seen retrive in a flat field with good scent/wind looks impressive to guns (and handlers to be fair) sometimes a short blind wind against u/poor scent over a ditch past dead game into cover or even throu cover into next clump, possibly taking a good line of the fall is a far far harder retrieve for the dog and its the sort of retrieve/find that no one else will ever see or know about

 

So distance isn't everything, but it does look great

[ips]

Ok I feel like a gauntlet has been laid down (by motty) 😁 I shall vid a longish blind tomorrow. Maybe do three a back a left and a right. This could backfire but nothing ventured and all that 👍

Ps

Thanks scotslad that's given me some ideas to mix it up a bit (as the kids say) 👍

[ips]

Its too darned hot just yet to have her in the field.

 

But is the way forward lots of long memory retrieves to get her used to taking a line from my arm. ?

Edited July 6, 2017 by ips

[scotslad]

With a younger dog i try to use every straight line i find when i'm out walking them,, wether tram lines/tractor marks in field/forestry, sheep/game tracks narrow footpaths, or fences anything which should makes it easier for ur dog to run in a straight line to the dummy.

 

Fences are great for doing left/rights with ur dog sitting up against the fence to encouarage them to run at 90 degree's

 

Long memories will definately make dog more confident runniing further from u, not sure it will help the dog taking a line of ur arm thou.usually with a memory for me is a simple go back command (or rarely a right/left if i turn dog 90 and i stand off the track a distance) and nowadays always try to keep the dummy in a direct straight line back and not round corners/bends etc

 

To improve ur dog taking a line of ur arm i'd do exactly wot u done in the clip fairly short easy seen retrieves in a short grass field (i'd even use an easily seen dummy, u get black/white ones, ps they reckon orange is really hard for a dog to see against grass background) so that the dog can see the dummy and then make it obvious and really line ur hand/arm even feet to point to the dummy, eventually ur dog will learn to look/run where ur pointing.

That clip of lee's from a while back was a great example of how to do it with young pups, he possibly makes it look to easy (not that its hard) that u don't notice all the wee things he's doing that automatically make the dog line up with u

 

 

Meant to add earlier if u do start really hiding the dummy in thick cover give it some scent first, spit on it, rub ur hands/armpit over it etc, i also quite like a 'search' command so u shout/whistle something when ur dog is in the general area to try and keep it there and often it hunts harder..

1 pro trainer i know has a great set up has a retrieving lane (lawnmowered ride) cut in the grass with a cirlce/s of long grass at the end of it and cut round about them, think his are 5m ish, idea being u throw dummy in the circle get ur dog there and then give the search command (traditionally for spaniel hi-los(t), never knew why? or ttthhhereee, in a soft voice) the idea of the circle is the dog should naturally turn back when it gets to the cut area so it learns to hunt a 5m circle when u give it the command. Really good to see well trained dogs do it, just switch from running in a straight line mode to hunting mode on command

Edited July 6, 2017 by scotslad

[ips]

Cheers scotslad. I see the theory of the cut lane and more importantly the search area, neat trick might try that.

I am not sure why all of a sudden I want a longer straighter run out, suppose its like the turn on a specific shoulder, I may never need it but given the type of dog work / shooting I do but its another thing to pass the time training 😉