243ack Posted July 13, 2017 Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 Hi All I recently acquired a rather nice Churchill XXV 'Utility' 16g with spare barrels. Wanting to find out its history, I approached Churchills, who said they would forward me the ledger entry for the princely sum of £70. This is what I received. Does the PW Massive think this is good value?. Churchill history.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 13, 2017 Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) That is appalling. I did the same thing - for considerably less - and received the very comprehensive order form which detailed the customer, names of the 'smiths involved and full details of the gun. It was made for a one armed man (lost t'other in WW2) so it had twin double triggers, easy opening and the safety catch moved from the normal position so it could be operated without changing the grip. I have actually spoken to his son a couple of years back and the old boy was still alive. Your serial number was allocated early in 1927 (source: The House of Churchill - Masters). I changed mine (they were renamed 'Regal' after the war owing to the connotations gained from the American servicemen for the word 'utility' for another standard version made just 5 years later than yours - both being 12s though. Edit: Just a thought; could the records have been mislaid because of the move from Leicester Square to Orange Street in 1929? Edited July 13, 2017 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243ack Posted July 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 Hi Wymberley Don't know about records being lost - but if they were, I feel Mr. Chris Cloke has been less than open by requesting £70 for a page which gives such scant information about the gun. I was most interested that both sets of barrels carry the same serial number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 13, 2017 Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 Hi Wymberley Don't know about records being lost - but if they were, I feel Mr. Chris Cloke has been less than open by requesting £70 for a page which gives such scant information about the gun. I was most interested that both sets of barrels carry the same serial number. Yep, both barrels made to fit the one action. Has it still got the VC motor case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243ack Posted July 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) Yes to the motor case. The LOP is only about 121/2" with a very professionally fitted 1/2" extension fitted (bringing it to 13"). Wanted to know if this was original - or has it been 'hacked'?. Also, there is no provision for the extra barrels in the case. Edited July 13, 2017 by 243ack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 13, 2017 Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 (edited) Yep, the stock would appear to have been shortened - light gun for a lad somewhere along the line perhaps - see the third measurement in in the row of them. The case suggests that the spare barrels might have been a later addition - different chokes, perhaps - as also as there is no mention on the order. As TC by Imp was ordered, I'll take a flyer and suggest the other pair are tighter. Edit: Had another look. As a result, another guess. It looks as though the customer used his own 12 bores as a model with the exception that he wanted a tad lighter trigger pull and also wanted the stock as per. Edited July 13, 2017 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 13, 2017 Report Share Posted July 13, 2017 I have contacted various makers over the years - and received various answers - all of which have been freely given; William Powell (years ago when in Birmingham) - typed out copies of their records of the order and history (e.g. sale a second time as used gun) they knew (2 guns) Joseph Lang (again years ago) - handwritten copy of the book entry Henry Atkin (about 4 years ago) - e mail with some details. Photo copy of book offered for a charge (can't remember how much, but don't think it was a lot) AyA - e mail of details/date of manufacture (from AyA Spain) A friend had details of original order from James Purdey, again I believe no charge for basic details, but I think a copy of the boom was offered for a fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin55 Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 I have contacted various makers over the years - and received various answers - all of which have been freely given; William Powell (years ago when in Birmingham) - typed out copies of their records of the order and history (e.g. sale a second time as used gun) they knew (2 guns) Joseph Lang (again years ago) - handwritten copy of the book entry Henry Atkin (about 4 years ago) - e mail with some details. Photo copy of book offered for a charge (can't remember how much, but don't think it was a lot) AyA - e mail of details/date of manufacture (from AyA Spain) A friend had details of original order from James Purdey, again I believe no charge for basic details, but I think a copy of the boom was offered for a fee. I got this last week from Purdey when asking about a Woodward: Should you be interested, we are able to provide the date and original specification of your shotgun, together with the name of the original owner. This is issued as a certificate, at a cost of £50 for the details, and £75 for a certificate which includes a photograph of the original entry K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Boggy Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 I got this last week from Purdey when asking about a Woodward: Should you be interested, we a[/size]re able to provide the date and original specification of your shotgun, together with the name of the original owner. This is issued as a certificate, at a cost of £50 for the details, and £75 for a certificate which includes a photograph of the original entry[/size] K[/size] I think the charge that Purdey propose is reasonable for the information given and adds provenance to the gun. However, If that is all Churchill had in their records then I think that they should have reduced the cost accordingly. Bit of a mickey take in my opinion. OB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 It doesn't even have a date on it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243ack Posted July 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 Thanks for the reassurances folks. I didn't know if it was just me being 'behind the times' with the cost of things!. I've emailed Chris Cloke (The Gunroom Manager) to ask if he could see his way to some sort of refund, but to date have had no reply. Fingers crossed!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 send him a link to this page?? That might help things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reidler Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 That is poor from Churchill. I recently did the same with atkin, Grant and lang and got a photo of the ledger entry, plus the date, customer and cost and where it was made. All for £25 which I thought was fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 Sounds miserable but pays your money takes your choice. £70 isn't loads, you got something, albeit not much, but it's not a wonderful gun full of provenance so you wouldn't get lots of history with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver pigeon69 Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 (edited) £70 for a one page photocopy isn't loads? ? Thats more than a Law firm charges !! Edit: forgot to say, Dodeer if you need any photocopying done, i'll do you a special rate of £50 per sheet! Edited July 14, 2017 by silver pigeon69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodeer Posted July 14, 2017 Report Share Posted July 14, 2017 £70 for a one page photocopy isn't loads? ? Thats more than a Law firm charges !! Edit: forgot to say, Dodeer if you need any photocopying done, i'll do you a special rate of £50 per sheet! Bargain thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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