The EU and the Irish border

[Rewulf]

For the people who already made home, yes. I've been paying lots of tax in this country, so I think I should have the same rights as anyone else. That fact that people voted leave, doesn't mean that I should be stripped from the access of NHS, od sick pay, or else. IMHO. After the cut off date, what the law gonna be for new people wanna come in is up for the politicans and the negotiations between the EU -UK.

 

You do have the same rights as anyone, when the UK formally leaves, or probably some time before, you can apply for permanent 'settled' status, you can also apply for UK citizenship, as you have been here longer than 6 years.

I would suggest ~(re) reading the gov paper setting out the way forward, the link I posted earlier in the thread.

You should have no issues whatsoever, I dont think you will have a problem bringing your sister over either.

The UK needs people like you, and would be very foolish to let hard working people go.

The whole issue of Brexit is to regain some control over things like immigration, dont let ignorant people tell you its going to end up like 1930s Germany.

This country is one of the most ,if not the most tolerant and ethnically diverse countries in Europe.

That is not going to change.

 

Must admit I think ur being urealistic over the eire border.

The EU are trying to be difficult but at the same time they can't make special arrangements or let 2 countries suit themselves, I doubt many refugee's come into EU throu the Baltic states so could Poland/Lithunania and Ukraine all operate a open border if it suited them?

When Scotland had its referendum many of u were in favour of rebuilding hadrains wall never mind just a border check

 

I really can't see there being much of an option just the same as it will be at Gibralta.

 

Look I agree with most of wot ur saying unfortunately its in the Eu's interest to make brexit a disaster and Westminste/parlimentr (voters at last election) are making it very likely it will be a disaster.

Getting politicains to see this throu is like asking turkeys to vote on an extra christmas

 

 

While it may be ackward for u Mossberg, at the moment u have the same rights as anyone else in UK so don't really see wot the difference is as that won't change.

as for ur mother etc, sadly that's just life, there's not a lot u can do about it other than get on with it.

I'm sure many on here would like to immigrate to various countries (Oz,NZ or USA) but know ey can't because of visa's or those that do/have know they have to make sacrifces reguarding friends and family.

I'm sure it will end up the same for any English living abroad they won't be able to bring family out too them either, many of them are retired

Britain has had an agreement with Eire since the 40s on free travel between North and South, apart from the troubles, there has never been an issue.

You say that the EU cant let 2 countries decide amongst themselves ?

Why ? Does the EU now decide what we can and cant do amongst our neighbours ?

When did that happen?

What if Argentina invaded the Falklands again, would we have to ask permission before acting?

I asked the original question, because I wasnt sure of the legal basis of the EUs insistence on sorting out the Irish border, before any trade negotiations could commence.

Indeed, I have asked on several occasions what it really has to do with them.

The question is this, have we given up control of our national borders, has every EU nation, not states, nations, given up control of their borders to the EU ?

 

The issue of what you can and cant do as a nation within the EU, is reaching a point where things are getting a heated (to say the least)

Eastern European nations, including Hungary, Mossberg ,do not want African and Middle eastern economic migrants,asylum seekers, refugees ect.

The EU is telling these sovereign nations governments ,they MUST take them, or there will be ....consequences!

Sound familiar ?

When did the EU elites become master race of Europe, telling us what to do, when did we vote for this ?

[iano]

 

The question is this, have we given up control of our national borders, has every EU nation, not states, nations, given up control of their borders to the EU ?

 

 

In short - yes.

 

Border access is now a thing that has to be approved by the EU.

 

I know that we had the agreements in place (and from my persepective - they worked very well for many years apart from some idiotic nordies wanting to play as soldiers) so they should fall back to as they were.

 

But as things stand, the EU would need to approve and sign off on that (and that would be an agreement by all members of the EU needed)

[Rewulf]

 

In short - yes.

 

Border access is now a thing that has to be approved by the EU.

 

I know that we had the agreements in place (and from my persepective - they worked very well for many years apart from some idiotic nordies wanting to play as soldiers) so they should fall back to as they were.

 

But as things stand, the EU would need to approve and sign off on that (and that would be an agreement by all members of the EU needed)

 

Im sure they did work well, Im also sure that when our 2 countries joined the EU ,the EU had nothing to say about our border arrangement, because back in 1973, it really was absolutely nothing to do with the then EEC.

So at what point did you get asked to relinquish control of your border with NI ?

And you are ok with someone in say, Romania, vetoing an agreement to keep that border passport free ?

 

A trade agreement between countries is always a good idea.

A body to administer that trade agreement is a good idea, it takes pressure off central government departments.

Creating another government,complete with parliament to administer it ,is not such a good idea.

Giving control of your national interests, borders and currency to it , is a really really bad idea.

And yet here we are.

[12gauge82]

 

Im sure they did work well, Im also sure that when our 2 countries joined the EU ,the EU had nothing to say about our border arrangement, because back in 1973, it really was absolutely nothing to do with the then EEC.

So at what point did you get asked to relinquish control of your border with NI ?

And you are ok with someone in say, Romania, vetoing an agreement to keep that border passport free ?

 

A trade agreement between countries is always a good idea.

A body to administer that trade agreement is a good idea, it takes pressure off central government departments.

Creating another government,complete with parliament to administer it ,is not such a good idea.

Giving control of your national interests, borders and currency to it , is a really really bad idea.

And yet here we are.

Good post and is what is at the heart of this whole Saga, we were never given a vote on whether to join what being part of the European has become, being a member has seriously disadvantaged the majority of working class people in this country, a democratic vote has taken place and many in power are still trying to steam roll over that decision. The EU is a obscene organisation that has evolved from a trade agreement into a super state controlled by an unelected group of elites, the cheek of them is unbelievable.

[JohnfromUK]

 

 

A trade agreement between countries is always a good idea.

 

Creating another government,complete with parliament to administer it ,is not such a good idea.

Giving control of your national interests, borders and currency to it , is a really really bad idea.

And yet here we are.

Remember - we joined a COMMON MARKET - that is how it was sold to us by Heath. Its official title was the European Economic Community (EEC)

It then gradually migrated into a 'European Union' - led by people who wanted 'ever closer union'. Blair was a big supporter of this - enough said.

 

I do not want 'ever closer union', but I was OK with a 'Common Market'.

[scotslad]

I don't think the 'problem' will be wot UK does with its borders but more wot Eire is allowed to do, in theory as being part of the EU to get its subsidies etc it will have to comply with wot EU says.

If UK had a border with another non EU country it could do wot ever it liked.

Things are changing and changing fast wit the refugee's and terrorism so if anything EU might start insiting on more border checks not less (the fact the Eire/NI border has no risk will be irrelevant to the pen pushers, which is the whole prob;em with EU, no common sense)

[Rewulf]

I don't think the 'problem' will be wot UK does with its borders but more wot Eire is allowed to do, in theory as being part of the EU to get its subsidies etc it will have to comply with wot EU says.

If UK had a border with another non EU country it could do wot ever it liked.

Things are changing and changing fast wit the refugee's and terrorism so if anything EU might start insiting on more border checks not less (the fact the Eire/NI border has no risk will be irrelevant to the pen pushers, which is the whole prob;em with EU, no common sense)

Which makes a mockery of the EU s free movement of people rule !

We want to keep the border open between the Irelands, they are trying to complicate matters.

Now why would they do that ?

[Uilleachan]

No one is complicating matters. It's black and white. I don't remember voting to stay or remain within the single market or customs union, but hey, you want to leave? then deal with the consequences and quit moaning.

 

The UK Gov, are making it up as they go along, it would almost be embarrassing, if I gave one...

[Rewulf]

No one is complicating matters. It's black and white. I don't remember voting to stay or remain within the single market or customs union, but hey, you want to leave? then deal with the consequences and quit moaning.

 

The UK Gov, are making it up as they go along, it would almost be embarrassing, if I gave one...

 

Your post doesnt even make sense.

If you dont give one, why bother ?

[scotslad]

I think ur missing the point, the freedom of movement is between EU members, after brexit UK will no longer be EU so is in reality no different than Ukraine, Lihunaia etc.

 

I did vote to leave but fully expecting that to mean some sort of border control at the Irish border. U can't ave it both ways

 

To me having a closed border along the English channel but a completely open Irish border makes absolutely no sense and is just bonkers.

There would be absolutely nothing to stop folk/migrants from EU countries travelling to Belfast, wot happens then?

Can we deport them back home? Who pays for that? Or would a NI jungle start up migrants who can travel throu the EU but not across on the ferry?

 

Althou to be fair I'd imagine most EU nationals could visit UK just not work here, so ur 'black' market working would hve to be tightened up

[12gauge82]

No one is complicating matters. It's black and white. I don't remember voting to stay or remain within the single market or customs union, but hey, you want to leave? then deal with the consequences and quit moaning.

 

The UK Gov, are making it up as they go along, it would almost be embarrassing, if I gave one...

Absolute nonsense. The vote was to leave which obviously meant, power over our own laws, immigration ECT, it's only become complex because we voted the 'wrong'way and they are twisting everything they can to ensure we only leave in name but nothing will really change, if that happens and brexit is not delivered I think the country could erupt.

[Uilleachan]

 

"Absolute nonsense. The vote was to leave which obviously meant, power over our own laws, immigration ECT, it's only become complex because we voted the 'wrong'way and they are twisting everything they can to ensure we only leave in name but nothing will really change, if that happens and brexit is not delivered I think the country could erupt."

 

You must have had a different ballot paper to me

Edited September 6, 2017 by Uilleachan

[Rewulf]

I think ur missing the point, the freedom of movement is between EU members, after brexit UK will no longer be EU so is in reality no different than Ukraine, Lihunaia etc.

 

I did vote to leave but fully expecting that to mean some sort of border control at the Irish border. U can't ave it both ways

 

To me having a closed border along the English channel but a completely open Irish border makes absolutely no sense and is just bonkers.

There would be absolutely nothing to stop folk/migrants from EU countries travelling to Belfast, wot happens then?

Can we deport them back home? Who pays for that? Or would a NI jungle start up migrants who can travel throu the EU but not across on the ferry?

 

Althou to be fair I'd imagine most EU nationals could visit UK just not work here, so ur 'black' market working would hve to be tightened up

 

You are mixing up EU and non EU migrants with asylum seekers/refugees.

Switzerland, Norway, Liechtenstein dont have border checks ,but are not in the EU.

But like I said earlier, you have to get to these countries first, then move across the border.

A rubber dinghy isnt going to cut it to Eire this ,or any other time of the year, you have to fly or sail in - security/passport check.

As far as EU citizens travelling to the UK after we leave, not a problem, if you have a job to go to, or are on holiday.

What you wont be doing is coming over to use our benefit system or NHS (without medical insurance) just like the rest of the EU

 

The hypocrisy of the EU is staggering when you think of all the 'refugees' that are allowed to roam freely all over Europe, many without passports or ID.

Yet a free flowing Irish border is a no no.

I believe they are trying to create the conditions for an Irish re unification, so they could use it to scare other countries into staying in the bloc.

Look how they stirred the pot with Scotland.

[12gauge82]

"Absolute nonsense. The vote was to leave which obviously meant, power over our own laws, immigration ECT, it's only become complex because we voted the 'wrong'way and they are twisting everything they can to ensure we only leave in name but nothing will really change, if that happens and brexit is not delivered I think the country could erupt."

 

You must have had a different ballot paper to me

Well you explain what the vote was for if we leave the club that is the eu and then keep all the laws and rules that were there before the vote took place? Maybe we did have different ballot papers because mine certainly didn't say that.

[scotslad]

Absolute nonsense. The vote was to leave which obviously meant, power over our own laws, immigration ECT, it's only become complex because we voted the 'wrong'way and they are twisting everything they can to ensure we only leave in name but nothing will really change, if that happens and brexit is not delivered I think the country could erupt.

 

Ur still missing the point, we voted to leave Eire hasn't so it's not entirely up to them to decide wot sort of border it is.

If Eire wants to remain part of EU it will have to abide by there rules.

 

I'm amazed u'd want a free and open border, I thought the whole point was to regain controls of the borders.

With an open border we will always be influenced by Eire's immigration policies plus EU freedom of movement

[Rewulf]

 

Ur still missing the point, we voted to leave Eire hasn't so it's not entirely up to them to decide wot sort of border it is.

If Eire wants to remain part of EU it will have to abide by there rules.

 

I'm amazed u'd want a free and open border, I thought the whole point was to regain controls of the borders.

With an open border we will always be influenced by Eire's immigration policies plus EU freedom of movement

I couldnt give a rats *** about the Irish border

Thats for the Irish to decide what THEY want, if they want passport control at the border, with queues of cars and customs checks then thats fine by me.

BUT if the EU tells them thats what they HAVE to do , then thats a different matter for them, is it not?

 

Say Scotland voted to leave the UK in 2014 ,and your Job or home was over the border, what would you want ?

Seeing as we would be EU and you wouldnt, would you like your tourism industry to dry up due to passport controls and tailbacks at border checkpoints?

 

Can you see my point now ?

[12gauge82]

 

Ur still missing the point, we voted to leave Eire hasn't so it's not entirely up to them to decide wot sort of border it is.

If Eire wants to remain part of EU it will have to abide by there rules.

 

I'm amazed u'd want a free and open border, I thought the whole point was to regain controls of the borders.

With an open border we will always be influenced by Eire's immigration policies plus EU freedom of movement

Apologies my post above is not specifically about the Irish border and I have strayed slightly off topic.

With regard to the irish border there are several options which has absolutely nothing to do with the eu, power over our borders is for the UK to decide, not the EU

[scotslad]

I couldnt give a rats *** about the Irish border

Thats for the Irish to decide what THEY want, if they want passport control at the border, with queues of cars and customs checks then thats fine by me.

BUT if the EU tells them thats what they HAVE to do , then thats a different matter for them, is it not?

 

Say Scotland voted to leave the UK in 2014 ,and your Job or home was over the border, what would you want ?

Seeing as we would be EU and you wouldnt, would you like your tourism industry to dry up due to passport controls and tailbacks at border checkpoints?

 

Can you see my point now ?

 

To be honest I did actually expect to be some sort of border control if that was the case, and I voted accordingly knowing that could happen.

I live close to the border so know plenty of folk that do drive over the border every day. And would occasionally be affected myself

It's just 1 of those things

 

I'm not sure why u think u can cherry pick wot happens when we leave. U have to take the good with the bad

End of day it strictly speaking is a EU/non EU border so I imagine well within thee rights to insist on full border controls (possibly to stop all the uk migrants heading the other way if it goes boobs up )

I think ur right and partly due to a completely disorganised/cluesless Westminster and Brussels wanting to make an example of us and play hard ball over the border. U never know that could cause Eire to have a think about there place in the EU?

 

While ur quite right it is UK's right to decide on a border but it is also equally Eire's (or more likely the EU's) right to decide too. We're quite rightly moaning about EU forcing its will on us but now we're forcing our will on it .I can see the hypocrisy in wanting to keep an open border when it suits us

 

To be honest I doubt border control would actually hit Scottish tourism that much as a whole, it would wipe out my area and the borders thou and I dare say most of n eng (lake district, penines, dales) as the majority of tourists would fly in see London then back on a plane to see Scotland/highlands.

End of day Scotland is still a big tourist draw for the UK as a whole, that won't change just how they travel there.

But the north of eng and s Scotland would lose a massive amount of passing trade

Edited September 6, 2017 by scotslad

[lister22]

I voted leave the the EU

Eire is close to to the UK we will find a way to deal with brexit that helps Eire