Deer and hare chasing spaniel

[Blackpowder]

Just over a year ago at the end of the 2016-17 pheasant season I was given a seven year old dog cocker  spaniel.  The donor had  taken him in from a broken marriage and he had followed said donors own dog around in the beating line for some 3 months, which went well considering his previous role was solely as a pet.  Now this dog is large for a cocker, and although his papers say he is a cocker there is a certain springer look about him.   At the end of that season he was destined for rescue kennels, so I took him on.   He is a lovely natured dog, gets on with most people and the majority of dogs.  He is fit and fast having caught two big adult hares this past year, retrieves wounded pheasants and pigeons alive. Seems to have a superb nose which is  his undoing as at every opportunity he tracks hares and roe often out of sight.  On normal walks he is at heel when told and returns readily to the whistle.  he has been scolded for every transgression but still he is off on scent at every opportunity.   Anything I can do to cure?

 

Blackpowder

[Clay cracker]

I once met a fella with a very well trained dog and i asked him how he enforced his commands and he said a hair dressers water spray bottle. Dog supposedly didn't like the mist very much so soon learnt???  

[Walker570]

'fraid you just have to keep him close, it is very unlikely you can now stop him doing what you say. From your description the dog is hunting as spaniels do when he locks on to scentsand you are too far away to stop him and sometimes he may be out of sight.   I know from watching young English Setters being trained and run on grouse moors, they tie a very long length of brightly coloured plastic washing line to the collar. This allows them to approach a point take hold of the line and gently move in so being able to stop the young dog charging forward on the flush. Do not know if that would be of use in this case. I have used a similar idea when I had a young viszla who would chase anything, rabbit, blackbird whatever and ignored commands.

Long thin but strong line and let him run till he hit the end and then I would pull him back and repeat the command. At times he was moving so fast he flipped.  Three or four times and I had him running free with just four feet of washing line trailing, eventually nothing.

 

Hope you sort him because he sounds a character.

[Retsdon]

3 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

He is fit and fast having caught two big adult hares this past year,

Remarkably fit and fast for a cocker spaniel. If he's still entire, you should put him out to stud. The coursing cocker - should be able to commsnd a massive fee....

[Blackpowder]

Yep first one he caught run against a mesh fence after about a two hundred yard chase, second he was gone in woodland around our local golf course for 10 -15 minutes before coming back proudly with a big buck hare.   Yes he is entire and at your service whenever you wish, might even work out a special discount for PW members.

 

Blackpowder

[Retsdon]

Fair play, he sounds like a fun dog to have about the place. And don't take any notice of my last post. The term ' the coursing cocker ' and the wonderful  mental image it conjoured up came to me, and I felt the need to share. Not sure you can change this beast, but why would you want to? The world's full of clones. One-offs are all too rare and should be treasured.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Retsdon
Typos

[Blackpowder]

Thanks Walker 570 and Retsdon for your replies, Walkers long line thing was recommended by a keeper friend also so will give it a try.   Over 30 days beating on commercial shoot last season but kept him on lead until other dogs were through the end of the drive.   Better work on our Assoc and Syndicate pheasant shoots where he really worked hard without doing to much damage where there were fewer  birds.  Although I have little or no experience of dog training I would have loved to have had this dog from pup stage and tried to make something really good from him.

 

Blackpowder

[Retsdon]

Thanks for the kind reply. Seriously, in my limited experience, the way to calm down over enthusiastic dogs is to work them to hell and gone. If you could give your dog a couple of weeks work flushing from heavy cover, day after day for about 6 hours a day, I'm pretty sure that after about day 6 or 7 he'd be slowing down and not be wasting his time running on ahead putting up stuff that can't be shot Dogs aren't stupid. A dog that only sees work twice a month for three months of the year is going to try and milk as much fun out of it as it can. Conversely a dog that's working hard day in and day out for its living soon learns to conserve energy. There's nothing like graft to mature a dog.

 

 

[Blackpowder]

We did at least 3 days beating and one day shooting a week last season, some weeks it was 4 days beating.   However working on commercial shoots  I only let him run once other dogs had been through the drive. I said earlier he is fit and fast and burst through cover which other dogs had went around.   The first day I took him pigeon shooting last March he was tied to the plastic drum I sat on.  Stand up take a shot and surprise hit the pigeon, before I got sorted out dog was on the way back carrying the pigeon and still dragging the plastic drum.

 

Blackpowder

[Walker570]

Now that made me laugh...sorry....  just the picture in my head, splutterrr !! 

My old Keeper, a retired sheep farmer used to put one front foot through the dogs collar to slow 'em down. He had a long legged, wire coated Jack Russel which was a brilliant retriever of game but sometimes would race about the place. Jack would just loop the foot through the collar. He said it was regular practise with young sheep dogs to slow them down a bit.

His terrier never seemed the worse for it. In fact was one of the best behaved JR's I have ever seen.

[Retsdon]

33 minutes ago, Blackpowder said:

Stand up take a shot and surprise hit the pigeon, before I got sorted out dog was on the way back carrying the pigeon and still dragging the plastic drum.

I love it! 

P

[Mice!]

might be worth getting in touch with big bird and see what she say's or if there is room on the training days she has.

always going to be difficult when the dog has been aloud to do as he pleases for 6 years or so, even harder when he's catching stuff.

[Dave at kelton]

Long line is the way to go but use the lightest you can so they dont realise its there. Paracord is very good. You then need to set him up with a rabbit, hare or the like and as he starts to run in you stop him in his tracks , drag him in, roar at him while giving him a good shaking. I train my pups at heel with Paracord and when they bunk off just put my foot on it. They soon get the message.

I do though fear he may be a bit too far gone and you just have to keep him close.

[scotslad]

A long line will likely be the way to go, but 1st u have to make sure the basics are 100% before u start

While it will most likely not be easy depending on the dogs temperment and how far gone it is, with the right training u should/might be able to fix it.

But it relly will need someone exp to get eyes on it ***** it and figure it out

 

Really work hard on sit, heel work and recall as well as stop whistle.  All that needs to be spot on before u go anywhere near live game, and don't let the dog have any free running in the meantime. (I know it sounds harsh not tolet ur dog off lead but the more it chass or ignores a command the harder ur problem will be. And plenty of pet dogs never get off lead) If u really must make sure in a secure area with no game and use it to re enforce ur recall/stop commands.

Sometimes hiding from ur dog can work too, if it ******* off move and hide and wait till dog comes back and still stay hidden, dog should learn u won't always wait for it so it has to watch out for u. That might not work with a very confident older dog like ur's possibly sounds

[Blackpowder]

Thanks Dave and Scotslad, sounds like  good advice with the line.   He is at me heel without issue, virtually nose to in fact so must get a bit of long line organised.  Is there any danger of injuring a dog fetching up short on a choke collar?

 

Blackpowder

[scotslad]

Do u not know any decent lads with gundogs that could give u a hand/advise??

My advice realy would be to get an exp/pro trainer to have a look at it.

Even if ur timings are off slightly can affect how well it works

 

While it is not rocket science to work a long line, dogs soon get wise to it so u don't have loadfs of chances to use it.

 

Really make sure ur stop whistle/sit is absolutely instant too even when on a lead/heel, if it doesn't obey the whistle instantly at heel it never will at distance.

I know the 1st time i took my old lab tp a pro trainer as having slight problems wot he really picked up on was me not being consistant when the dog is in close, only sitting quickly 80%, sometimes 2-4 sit commands, only recalling instantly 80%, sometimes having a pee before/during recall.

All things i didn't think mattered as only wanted a working dog not a FT dog, but its all these small disobedances that build up and multiply at distance, unless u address them 1st its very hard to move on. Esp when u throw in game scent and game to chase

[Dave at kelton]

I have never done any damage with the long line. I fasten to a collar first and then once used a couple of times slip it overy the head without the collar. You will also actually find it often trips them first depending on the angle. There is also usually a little give in the Paracord so it' not like hanging the dog. Once they have felt it they realise they have nowhere to go.

[Blackpowder]

Again Scotslad and Dave many thanks for your sound advice.

 

Blackpowder