Only a matter of time

[motty]

8 hours ago, stagboy said:

I don't know how long a Gamebore Biowad takes to biodegrade, but I am assured that eventually it will, because it is made of organic materials which can be digested by microbes (and as such is not to be confused with a photodegradebale wad, which merely breaks into pieces). Anyway, the issue is not one of cosmetics. It's much, much more important than that.

Plastic eventually physically breaks into micro-globules - ie tiny fragments - which may be extant for millions of years, causing widespread and irreversible pollution of living organisms and the environment. Arguing "other people pollute the planet so it doesn't matter if we do" is facile beyond belief.

Littering the countryside with plastic unnecessarily, when cost-effective alternatives are available, is selfish and does the shooting community no favours.

Most game shoots now ban plastic wads - and quite right, too. And now we have at least one commercially available wad for steel shot which is properly biodegradeable and costs little more than a plastic wad. No doubt more manufacturers would follow up is there was evidence of demand.  

As for Europe, Denmark, with the full support of its hunting organisations, is committed to banning all plastic shotgun wads within the next three years (just google it: Fieldsports Channel had a news item on this in March, and it was mentioned in Shooting Times a month or two ago).  What do the Danes know that we don't? 

Plastic wads are no longer necessary for steel shot. Gamebore has shown that. Let's get rid of plastic wads (before they indirectly help to get rid of us). 

It must be be great being up there on the moral high ground.

I take it you no longer use plastic products of any kind, or drive a motor vehicle.

Most game shoots have banned plastic wads? I really don't think so.

[Guest stevo]

4 minutes ago, Stimo22 said:

My point was that if it was my land I would not want plastic wads littering it. So I don't use them on my permission. On our clay shoot we have a fibre wad policy but we still get visitors trying to get away with using them. As some of the post have said they are not bothered and will do as they like. I believe it is the same with lead shot and duck and come back to bite us all on the backside

Personally I think game shooting will be banned before a total ban on plaswads.  

 

[Guest cookoff013]

guys, much as i hate to say it..

i love plastic. the wads are brilliant.

 

[Bluebarrels]

 

Embrace the change,and accept the new challenge?

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bluebarrels

[Bluebarrels]

52 minutes ago, motty said:

It must be be great being up there on the moral high ground.

I take it you no longer use plastic products of any kind, or drive a motor vehicle.

Most game shoots have banned plastic wads? I really don't think so.

Why do you think stagboy is taking the moral high ground?

He's simply putting his opinion across,his opinion might differ from yours,but it's his and he's entitled to express it,or am I missing something?

[Esca]

5 minutes ago, Bluebarrels said:

 

He's simply putting his opinion across,his opinion might differ from yours,but it's his and he's entitled to express it,or am I missing something?

I agree with Bluebarrels.

Personnally I can see the argument on both sides. I am sure that someone will come up with a suitable and realistic opion, that is commercially viable to replace plastic and I look forwards to that day.

Near to where I am there is a very large commecial shoot. At the end of the season employ people to walk the fields and collect the plastic wads/cartridges. I have not seen it but I was told by the keeper of a neighbouring shoot that they fill a skip with the wads.

It is after all down to your personal prefrence. Me personally if I can avoid using plastic I will, but if I am using steel, or looking to improve a pattern density  then plastic it is. 

[motty]

34 minutes ago, Bluebarrels said:

Why do you think stagboy is taking the moral high ground?

He's simply putting his opinion across,his opinion might differ from yours,but it's his and he's entitled to express it,or am I missing something?

Just rank hypocrisy!

[stuartyboy]

Stagboy is spot on.

Ultimately, it's your choice (at the moment) what wad you use. But we should all do what we can to minimise the impact to the environment and to show shooting in a good light. If that means using bio degrable wads as the way forward, I'm up for that. To be honest, I've always used plastic wads but this thread has inspired me to properly look at the alternatives.

I was shooting crows over a cut hay field that had still to be lifted with a friend. This was at the request of the farmer. When we went to lift the shot crows, there was a lot of wads littering the hay. Obviously we picked up as many as we could, but some are going to be bailed with the hay which will be used for feed. Surely that can't be a good thing?

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by stuartyboy

[White Rabbit]

10 hours ago, motty said:

Do you fire off lead shot? Do you drive a car? Do you burn fuels to heat your house? Please, don't be a hypocrite.

That has to be the most ridiculous argument in favour of littering the countryside with rubbish I've ever heard!

Humans by our very existance cause pollution but its our moral obligation to minimise this.

I drive a polluting vehicle so I might as well throw my rubbish out the window as I drive seeing as I'm polluting the environment anyway?! 

I think the plastic wad brigade like to see themselves as superior shots that require a cartridge "better" than us mere mortals!

I travel the length of the country through my work and the vast majority of gameshoots ARE fibre only. Ask any manufacturer. Fibre loads outsell plastic atleast twofold.

WR.

[Esca]

19 minutes ago, stuartyboy said:

I was shooting crows over a cut hay field that had still to be lifted with a friend. This was at the request of the farmer. When we went to lift the shot crows, there was a lot of wads littering the hay. Obviously we picked up as many as we could, but some are going to be bailed with the hay which will be used for feed. Surely that can't be a good thing?

 

some times you need to see it in context to understand the impact.

[Continental Shooter]

I'm yet to collect more plastic was than bottles, crisps package or bottles off any of the estuaries I go to for shooting fishing or field I walk through. I bet the plastic moralists still munch through crisp, drinking off a plastic bottle brought to the location with a palstic carrier bag...yet the tiny wads are the source of every evil...?? I tend to collect rubbish wherever I go and this includes wads and shells (mine or not) wherever I go, but will still prefer plastic for most of my shooting

[motty]

56 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

That has to be the most ridiculous argument in favour of littering the countryside with rubbish I've ever heard!

Humans by our very existance cause pollution but its our moral obligation to minimise this.

I drive a polluting vehicle so I might as well throw my rubbish out the window as I drive seeing as I'm polluting the environment anyway?! 

I think the plastic wad brigade like to see themselves as superior shots that require a cartridge "better" than us mere mortals!

I travel the length of the country through my work and the vast majority of gameshoots ARE fibre only. Ask any manufacturer. Fibre loads outsell plastic atleast twofold.

WR.

Do you still use lead?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, White Rabbit said:

That has to be the most ridiculous argument in favour of littering the countryside with rubbish I've ever heard!

Humans by our very existance cause pollution but its our moral obligation to minimise this.

I drive a polluting vehicle so I might as well throw my rubbish out the window as I drive seeing as I'm polluting the environment anyway?! 

I think the plastic wad brigade like to see themselves as superior shots that require a cartridge "better" than us mere mortals!

I travel the length of the country through my work and the vast majority of gameshoots ARE fibre only. Ask any manufacturer. Fibre loads outsell plastic atleast twofold.

WR.

Do you have a link to those figures please?

[White Rabbit]

12 minutes ago, motty said:

Do you still use lead?

Yes I use lead. You're not understanding the argument. That doesn't give anyone carte blanche to throw plastic all over the countryside. 

 

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Do you have a link to those figures please?

You're not likely to ever see sales figures as they're commercially sensitive. My information comes from talking to two different cartridge manufacturer's first hand on shoot days. I can't see why they'd lie.

Watch someone like Simon Ward in a grouse butt using fibres then explain why you need plastic?!

I'm not getting drawn into an argument no one can win as some people just have a different outlook on things and that won't change.

WR.

[Bluebarrels]

1 minute ago, White Rabbit said:

Yes I use lead. You're not understanding the argument. That doesn't give anyone carte blanche to throw plastic all over the countryside. 

 

You're not likely to ever see sales figures as they're commercially sensitive. My information comes from talking to two different cartridge manufacturer's first hand on shoot days. I can't see why they'd lie.

Watch someone like Simon Ward in a grouse butt using fibres then explain why you need plastic?!

I'm not getting drawn into an argument no one can win as some people just have a different outlook on things and that won't change.

WR.

Your right there mate some things or opinions will never change?especially with some on here lol

 

[Bluebarrels]

22 hours ago, turbo33 said:

I would imagine its only a matter of time before plastic wads are taboo. The recent drive to rid the world of plastic will not see us with a special dispensation to continue using them I'm sure.

Plastic wads still seem to dominate the cartridge market, especially in 410. Most clay grounds round here are fibre only and its just common sense to me, to use fibre for shooting where livestock are likely to graze. Also, lets not forget, that shooting over farmland, is still some someones property and theres no excuse for leaving empty plastic shells behind and logically the same would apply to plastic wads.

My point to this is, following on from Cookoff's post developing fibre loads. Great idea Cooky, and maybe something that reloaders should mull over. I load 12g,20g and 410 all fibre, and they never disappoint me with their performance. 

  

TBH mate I think it comes down to respect,yes I use plastic wads but take the time to pick them up at the end of a decoying session.The farmer I shoot for ain't fussed if I use plastic or fibre but he allows me to shoot his land and the least I can do is clean up before I head home.

I've always used the "leave nothing but your footprints" mentality.

 

[motty]

21 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

Yes I use lead. You're not understanding the argument. That doesn't give anyone carte blanche to throw plastic all over the countryside. 

 

You're not likely to ever see sales figures as they're commercially sensitive. My information comes from talking to two different cartridge manufacturer's first hand on shoot days. I can't see why they'd lie.

Watch someone like Simon Ward in a grouse butt using fibres then explain why you need plastic?!

I'm not getting drawn into an argument no one can win as some people just have a different outlook on things and that won't change.

WR.

I totally understand the argument. I am now trying to understand why someone who is really against "throwing plastic all over the countryside" is totally fine with "throwing lead all over the countryside". There are alternative to lead, you know!

4 minutes ago, Bluebarrels said:

TBH mate I think it comes down to respect,yes I use plastic wads but take the time to pick them up at the end of a decoying session.The farmer I shoot for ain't fussed if I use plastic or fibre but he allows me to shoot his land and the least I can do is clean up before I head home.

I've always used the "leave nothing but your footprints" mentality.

 

You pick up every plastic wad? How on earth do you manage that?

[Bluebarrels]

12 minutes ago, motty said:

 

You pick up every plastic wad? How on earth do you manage that?

I never said I pick up every wad! As you say that would be impossible,however if your decoying over a pattern and most of my shooting is corvids over grass it's not impossible to pick MOST of the wads up at the end of the session.

And if I only pick up 75/80% of the wads surely that's better than leaving 100% on the land!!

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bluebarrels

[Continental Shooter]

1 hour ago, White Rabbit said:

That has to be the most ridiculous argument in favour of littering the countryside with rubbish I've ever heard!

Humans by our very existance cause pollution but its our moral obligation to minimise this.

I drive a polluting vehicle so I might as well throw my rubbish out the window as I drive seeing as I'm polluting the environment anyway?! 

I think the plastic wad brigade like to see themselves as superior shots that require a cartridge "better" than us mere mortals!

I travel the length of the country through my work and the vast majority of gameshoots ARE fibre only. Ask any manufacturer. Fibre loads outsell plastic atleast twofold.

WR.

that is the biggest lie ever!

As some of you might know i do have direct contacts in some of the biggest manufacturers in the world; not commercial, but technicians so, they have no interest in swinging anybody in any direction and their statements are factual; i never ever heard any of them mentioning that fiber is anything other than nuisance to them.

Just by looking at the different production chains you can tell that fiber will never outsell plastic.  Fiber is not economic for manufacturer due to the many issues it causes with machinery and chain production resulting in added costs associated to supervise the production.  Also, fiber requires more powder (from same batch) to close the performance gap with plastic, again not something the manufacturers are really fond of. Finally, fiber has never and will never match plastic's performances which also causes damage reputation to manufacturers.

 

[White Rabbit]

6 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

that is the biggest lie ever!

As some of you might know i do have direct contacts in some of the biggest manufacturers in the world; not commercial, but technicians so, they have no interest in swinging anybody in any direction and their statements are factual; i never ever heard any of them mentioning that fiber is anything other than nuisance to them.

Just by looking at the different production chains you can tell that fiber will never outsell plastic.  Fiber is not economic for manufacturer due to the many issues it causes with machinery and chain production resulting in added costs associated to supervise the production.  Also, fiber requires more powder (from same batch) to close the performance gap with plastic, again not something the manufacturers are really fond of. Finally, fiber has never and will never match plastic's performances which also causes damage reputation to manufacturers.

 

I should have been more specific. Apologies. I was referring to British cartridge manufacturers and their game loads. 

WR.

[Esca]

Now this is one passionate debate. I think it is always going to come down to the individal preferance and this we should respect.

[turbo33]

9 minutes ago, Bluebarrels said:

TBH mate I think it comes down to respect,yes I use plastic wads but take the time to pick them up at the end of a decoying session.The farmer I shoot for ain't fussed if I use plastic or fibre but he allows me to shoot his land and the least I can do is clean up before I head home.

I've always used the "leave nothing but your footprints" mentality.

 

I know you do BB, we've discussed it. I have the pleasure of shooting with you, and you are respectful to both to the farmer and the countryside. 

As always, this thread has turned into more of an argument than a conversation. I really have no idea why the plastic wad die hards are so defensive and venomous? There can't be a single rational argument for leaving plastic anywhere.   I do appreciate some reloaders may favour them for ease of use and cost, the Americans particularly.  But comments about crisp bags etc are ridiculous. As far as I know, crisps aren't available loose, but fibre wads are available in factory shells and for reloads.

[stuartyboy]

Surely the bottom line is that as the self proclaimed 'Guardians of the countryside' we all have a duty to minimise any pollutants or litter that we leave behind. Especially if its as simple as changing wads or even shot material.

There's the beginnings of a massive public support for banning one use plastics as much as possible. If shooters aren't pro active a ban will likely be imposed on plastic wads some time in the future

[muncher]

The problem I have with the steel  biodegradable fibre Cups is , big shot goes through the wad and will damage the barrel, untill they find a decent replacement I will use plastic on the coast.When we do our Marsh clean up we pick up tons  of plastic bottles and a few wads ,deal with plastic bottles then you will have achieve s something.

Edited June 29, 2018 by muncher
Spelling

[Continental Shooter]

4 minutes ago, Bluebarrels said:

I never said I pick up every wad! As you say that would be impossible,however if your decoying over a pattern and most of my shooting is corvids over grass it's not impossible to pick MOST of the wads up at the end of the session.

And if I only pick up 75/80% of the wads surely that's better than leaving 100% on the land!!

same! i don't shoot much and unless is laid barley (or shore) in my area it's fairly easy to pick up wads over a decoys pattern. probably not achieving as much as 70-80 % but i am happy with whatever i can find. 

What strikes me though is this hate against wad when, all over the world the problem, is bottles and bags and all other polymer used for all different applications ...   

I think it's more ecofriendly to collect all plastic bag, bottles, crisp /chocolate  wraps you find around than change to fiber wad; but then again, i know it's easier to blame something than do something

 

7 minutes ago, turbo33 said:

  But comments about crisp bags etc are ridiculous. As far as I know, crisps aren't available loose, but fibre wads are available in factory shells and for reloads.

oh, so because you like crisps it's fine ... BTW there are bags for crisps which are biodegradable but instead of 50p it'll cost you £1.50 a bag so... 

i like plastic wad so, prefer to collect crisp bags and shoot plastic wads (purely based on performance and requirements).... 

14 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

I should have been more specific. Apologies. I was referring to British cartridge manufacturers and their game loads. 

WR.

?