Game days? How much is justifiable?

[CharlieT]

The code states  "Shoot managers must ensure they have appropriate arrangements in place for the sale or consumption of the anticipated bag in advance of all shoot days."

It does not say a market must be secured prior to ordering in poults, rather it states prior to a shoot day. Problems arise when days are booked, deposits paid, beaters and pickers are arranged and a promise of payment made and then the game dealer one has been using all season stops taking game and at the very last moment a new market must be found.

Following the code is not as easy as it seems.

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, sabel25 said:

Perhaps if it was promoted properly to the general public  Organic low fat high protien etc etc

They should have one or two of these ponsey chefs that appear on numerous cookery programmes to push this healthy product  instead of them showing us how to cook a bloody turkey every christmas or an inemic chicken breast

Promoted and packaged with organic and a tractor stamped on, it will sell  Shops and super markets will make big profit from a product that they'll buy in relatively cheap

Actually I suspect much game isn't 'organic' unless the shoot specifically buys organic certified food/grain and follows an organic compatible veterinary compliance, but that is an aside.

I think the biggest problem is that people are in general lazy and like to buy their poultry (the most similar 'mainstream' equivalent) in a form ready for the pan/oven.  The days of getting chickens, goose, turkey 'whole' from the local butcher have largely gone.  I am lazy myself and usually only 'breast out' game.

I'm not aware of any mainstream outlets selling 'oven ready' pheasant/game.  I'm sure some smaller deli/butchers do, but certainly the supermarkets I use don't.  Part of the problem here is cost and labour - especially in a supply chain where the met is only 'in season' for a part of the year.  There may also be concerns over claims from broken teeth where people bite on shot?

Game is also 'a matter of preference' in that some like it near fresh, others like it to have been hung for some time to 'develop'.

I think there is opportunity there, but suspect that there are a lot of pitfalls and problems that have put potential businesses off.  Notably, although we do see Gressingham duck, it doesn't seem particularly popular.

[stagboy]

19 minutes ago, sabel25 said:

Perhaps if it was promoted properly to the general public  Organic low fat high protien etc etc

They should have one or two of these ponsey chefs that appear on numerous cookery programmes to push this healthy product  instead of them showing us how to cook a bloody turkey every christmas or an inemic chicken breast

Promoted and packaged with organic and a tractor stamped on, it will sell  Shops and super markets will make big profit from a product that they'll buy in relatively cheap

I have sympathy with your view.

However, just one point - very little game is officially allowed to be called "organic". This is not just because of the chemicals used in rearing - even wild venison from the hill cannot be labelled "organic", at the risk of big fines from Trading Standards. "Organic" meat has to be reared on a registered organic holding, where it can be shown it is not exposed to synthetic chemicals etc and regularly inspected by an accredited organisation, like the Soil Association. . Sadly, the ordinary meaning of the word "organic" has been captured by officialdom, and I recall a retailer being given a rap over the knuckles, at the instigation of an anti group, when he had the temerity to describe shot pheasants as "organic". 

[islandgun]

 A large shoot could use a small building passed by food hygiene, equipped with a plucking machine and vacuum packer, breast out and pack  game, resulting meat could be sealed in a polystyrene box along with some ice and sent nationwide overnight, I currently buy chicken breast in 5kg packs @ £5- KG. I would be happy to pay more for Pheasant, Partridge or Pigeon... Theres probably grants available for a bit of rural diversification.. I use about 20kg of meat a week including venison and rabbit . not much by some peoples standard but i doubt im the only market

[Scully]

3 hours ago, stagboy said:

No. Can't be bothered to ask, even, because the question is irrelevant and a distraction from my point, which is that that the Code of Good Shooting Practice stipulates that game is to be treated as food, and shoots shouldn't produce game unless they know can dispose of it properly, ie into the human food chain.  Exactly how they do that is up to them - some give it away, it seems, from earlier posts. Fair enough; as long as it isn't wasted. Anybody who participates in a shoot should, to my mind, satisfy themselves that it is abiding by the Code. It's irresponsible to do anything else, in my opinion.

Here is the relevant section of the Code, once again:  "Shoot managers must ensure they have appropriate arrangements in place for the sale or consumption of the anticipated bag in advance of all shoot days." If you don't agree with this,  then that's up to you. I am sure the antis would welcome you with open arms. 

Now, the current "oversupply" of game meat is an observable fact. Whatever the reason, it exists. That's why shoots are giving it away - or even paying for it to be taken away.

We need to recognise this basic fact in order to deal with it. And the evidence (see links in earlier posts) suggests that both the total number and the density of pheasant rearing has increased greatly in recent decades. Yet I see no evidence that the overall number of game shoots has increased markedly over the same time. So, this suggests that some of the big shoots are getting even bigger. Hence more game is flooding the market. And this has led to problems for shoots of all sizes, in my opinion, as the commercial value of game meat has collapsed, depriving shoots of income, and at the same time giving the antis potent ammunition to attack the public perception of game and game shooting.

The BGA, it seems, is attempting to address the current supply/demand imbalance by stimulating demand, rather than restricting supply. That's a perfectly respectable position. I wish them well. 

 

You can't be bothered to ask, yet you're criticising those who don't satisfy themselves that a shoot is abiding by the code? Well thanks for your honesty. I can't be bothered either; it's not my responsibility, as I've said. 

There are just short of 400 shoots which are members of the BGA, and as you say, they appear to be trying to address the problem of supply and demand, yet they don't appear to be criticising those shoots which shoot big bag numbers ( as you are ) nor even suggest they reduce bag sizes.  Even their good conduct advice ( which isn't law, lest anyone is under the misapprehension it is ) regarding ensuring an outlet for shot birds comes with the caveat...'within ones control'. I never once said I didn't agree with the good conduct code, but very little in the real world is as clear cut in black and white as some would wish. 

As an aside, I think it safe to assume that of the 393 (?) shoots signed up to the BGA, there will be more than a few which sell not only big bag days, but extreme high bird shooting also. 

[Scully]

3 hours ago, scolopax said:

to take it to the extreme and totally hypothetically.....the industry has some form PR disaster, and there is no market or outlet for the vast majority of shot game....Is it ethical / justifiable for a shoot to continue knowing that the birds will be disposed of as waste at the end of each shoot day ?   Would revenue made and spent and gamekeepers job make such actions justifiable?    

 

Unjustifiable, unethical and immoral, but not illegal. 

[CharlieT]

46 minutes ago, islandgun said:

 A large shoot could use a small building passed by food hygiene, equipped with a plucking machine and vacuum packer, breast out and pack  game, resulting meat could be sealed in a polystyrene box along with some ice and sent nationwide overnight, I currently buy chicken breast in 5kg packs @ £5- KG. I would be happy to pay more for Pheasant, Partridge or Pigeon... Theres probably grants available for a bit of rural diversification.. I use about 20kg of meat a week including venison and rabbit .not much by some peoplesstandard buti doubt im the only market

This is exactly what most of the large shoots in my area do.

[CharlieT]

19 hours ago, stagboy said:

I see no evidence that there has been any real  growth in the number of game shoots overall - only in the size of the total UK bag, caused by a relatively small proportion of shoots that produce increasingly large bags, I believe. And the ensuing oversupply of game meat is now a key problem for driven game shooting, no matter what the size of the shoot, not to mention issues associated with overstocking etc.  Anybody who participates in a shoot - of any size, commercial or private  - should satisfy themselves that it is obeying the Code of Good Shooting Practice, which basically stipulates that game must not be shot unless it has a pre-arranged market for human consumption. That's what I mean by taking responsibility. 

I can only speak with direct knowledge of my area where there has, over recent years, been a dramatic increase in the number of commercial shoots.

The following, from the Exmoor National Park, makes for some interesting reading. 

Date: 04 December 2018 GAME SHOOTING IN EXMOOR – EXMOOR SOCIETY PERSPECTIVES

Background

1. The Exmoor National Park Authority (ENPA) has reported that “there has been some increased discussion about the impact of game shooting on Exmoor, via our Partnership Plan public consultation and also via comments made by our Local Access Forum, Authority Members and local community. Our recently published Landscape Character Assessment has also revealed some concerns about the developing impact of game shoots.”

2. In summary, the issues of concern regarding game shooting include:

 Intensity of released birds and associated impact on flora & fauna as well as contamination of water courses with faeces and sediments

 Visual impact of feeders, bare ground, fencing and other infrastructure

 Netting/fencing and electrification making public rights of way gates and paths harder to use

 The impact of excess grain including smell, rodent population and contamination of water courses

 Wear and tear on public rights of way and roads from vehicles to service the rearing, release and shooting of game birds

 Noise impact of shooting, bird scarers and service vehicles

 Wider landscape impacts including cover crops and track works

 Flushed birds scaring horses on roads and public bridleways

 Game birds on roads affecting drivers, as well as the visual impact of dead birds on roads

 Potential pollution impacts of lead shot

 Litter impacts of plastic wads

 Environmental impacts of bird medical treatments and cover crop pesticides

3. The ENPA notes that none of the above issues are new, and some are of greater concern than others. It is acknowledged that the game shoot ‘industry’ has grown significantly on Exmoor over the last 20 years, which has brought some of these issues into greater focus. There is some concern that game shooting will continue to increase in area and/or intensity. Conversations with shoot managers suggest that all shootsare doing work to reduce their impacts already. ENPA is keen to help improve understanding of these impacts and see if they can be reduced further. It asserts the importance of engaging with the issues in order to achieve the Authority’s duty to protect the special qualities of the National Park, and hopes there are long term benefits to the shoot industry to be gained from looking at this with the Authority. Moreover, “if the Exmoor Society would like to feed into this discussion, we would be very interested to hear your views”.

https://www.exmoorsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Exmoor-Society-Perspectives-on-Game-Shooting-Dec-2018.pdf

Edited February 19, 2019 by CharlieT

[stagboy]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

You can't be bothered to ask, yet you're criticising those who don't satisfy themselves that a shoot is abiding by the code?

I don't bother because your question is not necessarily relevant to the Code - as other posters have explained. I know that every shoot I go on has a home for its game (usually the Guns and beaters).

I can only hope the BGA gets results, for the overall good of shooting. But in the absence of any restraint or responsibility from some of the "I'll shoot as big a  bag as I can buy and damn what happens to it after that" lot it has an uphill struggle.

Edited February 19, 2019 by stagboy

[stagboy]

34 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

I can only speak with direct knowledge of my area where there has, over recent years, been a dramatic increase in the number of commercial shoots.

The following, from the Exmoor National Park, makes for some interesting reading. 

Date: 04 December 2018 GAME SHOOTING IN EXMOOR – EXMOOR SOCIETY PERSPECTIVES

Background

1. The Exmoor National Park Authority (ENPA) has reported that “there has been some increased discussion about the impact of game shooting on Exmoor, via our Partnership Plan public consultation and also via comments made by our Local Access Forum, Authority Members and local community. Our recently published Landscape Character Assessment has also revealed some concerns about the developing impact of game shoots.”

2. In summary, the issues of concern regarding game shooting include:

 Intensity of released birds and associated impact on flora & fauna as well as contamination of water courses with faeces and sediments

 Visual impact of feeders, bare ground, fencing and other infrastructure

 Netting/fencing and electrification making public rights of way gates and paths harder to use

 The impact of excess grain including smell, rodent population and contamination of water courses

 Wear and tear on public rights of way and roads from vehicles to service the rearing, release and shooting of game birds

 Noise impact of shooting, bird scarers and service vehicles

 Wider landscape impacts including cover crops and track works

 Flushed birds scaring horses on roads and public bridleways

 Game birds on roads affecting drivers, as well as the visual impact of dead birds on roads

 Potential pollution impacts of lead shot

 Litter impacts of plastic wads

 Environmental impacts of bird medical treatments and cover crop pesticides

3. The ENPA notes that none of the above issues are new, and some are of greater concern than others. It is acknowledged that the game shoot ‘industry’ has grown significantly on Exmoor over the last 20 years, which has brought some of these issues into greater focus. There is some concern that game shooting will continue to increase in area and/or intensity. Conversations with shoot managers suggest that all shootsare doing work to reduce their impacts already. ENPA is keen to help improve understanding of these impacts and see if they can be reduced further. It asserts the importance of engaging with the issues in order to achieve the Authority’s duty to protect the special qualities of the National Park, and hopes there are long term benefits to the shoot industry to be gained from looking at this with the Authority. Moreover, “if the Exmoor Society would like to feed into this discussion, we would be very interested to hear your views”.

https://www.exmoorsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Exmoor-Society-Perspectives-on-Game-Shooting-Dec-2018.pdf

Well all that looks pretty ominous for the future of game shooting.

[Scully]

8 minutes ago, stagboy said:

I don't bother because your question is not necessarily relevant to the Code - as other posters have explained. I know that every shoot I go on has a home for its game (usually the Guns and beaters).

I can only hope the BGA gets results, for the overall good of shooting. But in the absence of any restraint or responsibility from some of the "I'll shoot as big a  bag as I can buy and damn what happens to it after that" lot it has an uphill struggle.

Of course it's relevant to the code; it was your suggestion! 

Guns paying for days will shoot as big a bag as they choose, and the shoots will cater for them. Which came first? 

I hope the BGA gets results also, but they don't appear to be blaming the shoots within their membership for the problem, unlike some. 

[stagboy]

14 minutes ago, Scully said:

Of course it's relevant to the code; it was your suggestion!  

No. You posed a question based on your own interpretation. Yawn.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by stagboy

[islandgun]

48 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

I can only speak with direct knowledge of my area where there has, over recent years, been a dramatic increase in the number of commercial shoots.

The following, from the Exmoor National Park, makes for some interesting reading. 

Date: 04 December 2018 GAME SHOOTING IN EXMOOR – EXMOOR SOCIETY PERSPECTIVES

Background

1. The Exmoor National Park Authority (ENPA) has reported that “there has been some increased discussion about the impact of game shooting on Exmoor, via our Partnership Plan public consultation and also via comments made by our Local Access Forum, Authority Members and local community. Our recently published Landscape Character Assessment has also revealed some concerns about the developing impact of game shoots.”

2. In summary, the issues of concern regarding game shooting include:

 Intensity of released birds and associated impact on flora & fauna as well as contamination of water courses with faeces and sediments

 Visual impact of feeders, bare ground, fencing and other infrastructure

 Netting/fencing and electrification making public rights of way gates and paths harder to use

 The impact of excess grain including smell, rodent population and contamination of water courses

 Wear and tear on public rights of way and roads from vehicles to service the rearing, release and shooting of game birds

 Noise impact of shooting, bird scarers and service vehicles

 Wider landscape impacts including cover crops and track works

 Flushed birds scaring horses on roads and public bridleways

 Game birds on roads affecting drivers, as well as the visual impact of dead birds on roads

 Potential pollution impacts of lead shot

 Litter impacts of plastic wads

 Environmental impacts of bird medical treatments and cover crop pesticides

3. The ENPA notes that none of the above issues are new, and some are of greater concern than others. It is acknowledged that the game shoot ‘industry’ has grown significantly on Exmoor over the last 20 years, which has brought some of these issues into greater focus. There is some concern that game shooting will continue to increase in area and/or intensity. Conversations with shoot managers suggest that all shootsare doing work to reduce their impacts already. ENPA is keen to help improve understanding of these impacts and see if they can be reduced further. It asserts the importance of engaging with the issues in order to achieve the Authority’s duty to protect the special qualities of the National Park, and hopes there are long term benefits to the shoot industry to be gained from looking at this with the Authority. Moreover, “if the Exmoor Society would like to feed into this discussion, we would be very interested to hear your views”.

https://www.exmoorsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Exmoor-Society-Perspectives-on-Game-Shooting-Dec-2018.pdf

That is interesting, thanks for posting, many points worthy of comment, one i found telling,  point 26 political and general views !  and R7 the advise that shoots could employ a liaison person to communicate, educate and placate !

[stumfelter]

I'm sure that to a lot of guns game birds are just feathered targets and no concern of theirs after being shot.

[CharlieT]

2 minutes ago, stumfelter said:

I'm sure that to a lot of guns game birds are just feathered targets and no concern of theirs after being shot.

Well, you must move in very different circles to me, because in 60 odd years of game shooting I've yet to meet anyone who thinks like that.

 

[stumfelter]

13 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Well, you must move in very different circles to me, because in 60 odd years of game shooting I've yet to meet anyone who thinks like that.

 

I must do. They get dropped off at a peg, targets are presented to them then picking up the birds is someone else's concern. Realistically you must have met people like that.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, stagboy said:

 

 

 

 

22 hours ago, stagboy said:

 

Edited February 19, 2019 by Scully

[Nmb]

Some interesting views on this topic!

Our syndicate doesn’t shoot huge amounts so never an issue getting the birds used however I do object to how quickly the partridges disappear from the game cart as im yet  to get one for my supper! 

I think it’s up to the shoot organisers to know what sort of bag they are going to provide and where the game can get used.

i have 3 people at my work that ask regularly if I have any pheasant breasts going spare during the season and I’m happy to give them some as it’s always a positive reflection on shooting. 

I still can’t imagine a 500 bird day but I’d happily shoot one!

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, stagboy said:

No. You posed a question based on your own interpretation. Yawn.

 

 

My mistake, you're right. I meant how would a gun determine if a shoot was following a good conduct code unless they asked. My confusion and my apologies. Have deleted relevant post. 

[stagboy]

Nae probs. Good of you.