.22 FAC air running at 45 ft/lb

[Whitebridges]

My FAC air .25 shoots 25.39g ammo at 895 fps for 45 ft lbs It's very accurate.

In the past i've used .22 guns that shot at 20-30 ft lbs and would say they are like chalk n cheese compared with the .25 !   

 

[Bluebarrels]

3 hours ago, scarecrow243 said:

the slr 7.62 was replaced because the army needed to spend money and what they got was a piece of **** fit for the bin ask the guys who had to use them

I was serving when the Sa80 replaced the SLR and yes as you say the A1 had some teething problems.

HK carried out the modifications and the A2 was much improved,the weapon system has just had a major overhaul and the A3 is now in service.

I'm Still serving and use the weapon system pretty often and have to say I've never had a problem with it,its robust,accurate and reliable.

but dont, bad workmen blame there tools?

When u go out shooting and miss your intended target is the gun at fault or you?

And as for your sweeping statement above,do you believe everything your mates tell you down the pub,because it doesn't sound like your qualified to say it's a "piece of **** only good for the bin" when you have no personal hands on experience. 

[scarecrow243]

i havent used the sa80 but have used the slr for 2 1/2 years   it was all over the news about the sa80 faults as you say it may have been made better  but i would still rather have the slr .  i have had a .308  and now use. a .243 every one has their own opinion 

[Bluebarrels]

How can u say you would rather have the SLR over the Sa80 when you have zero experience with the Sa80? 😂😂

 

[The Burpster]

On 31/03/2019 at 10:58, Zetter said:

Ive been looking at FAC air again and have seen a couple of Daystates running at 45 ft/lb in .22.

 

Now running the number through an energy conversion calculator this is going to be throwing even 21 grain stuff like bisley mags at approaching or over 1000fps which from past experience would be starting to get to the muzzle velocity that would give stability/ accuracy issues.

I used to have a .25 cal FAC air in the past that was running at about 50 ft/lb and found that lighter weight 25 cal pellets ( i.e. those at about 21 grain) grouped a fair bit worse than stuff in the 25 grain range with these light pellets getting up towards 1000 fps so I thought at the time they were starting to destabilise due to the velocity. 

Has anyone got/ used a .22 air rifle running at the sort of muzzle energy above and if so how did you find it accuracy wise and what sort of pellets worked?

 

Cheers in advance

 

Zetter 

 

I’m not getting drawn into the argument going on above as I’ve seen it all before and undoubtedly will again...

So to answer your question constructively to the best of my experience and knowledge......... it all depends....!

Hmmm on what? Well I had tried FAC back in the early 2000s when in all honesty everybody and his dog were making PCPs and with probably the exception of the Theoben Rapid none of them tamed big pressures and outputs. Design, machining, tolerances and, more importantly pellets have moved on producing some rifles that are solid performers up those grey areas.

I have found with my recently acquired FAC HW100 that power output is all relative if you want accuracy. So to quantify that it came with the 600mm barrel and was producing (all tested with the same JSB 18.3gn pellet) 25ft/lbs but should’ve been up nearer 30, so apart it came and all the balancing and tweaking that I could do were done. Got it up nearer 29 but accuracy was not what I wanted and expected. It was also making the valve burp and using too much air. Convinced it should be better I swapped the barrel for 410mm barrel from a sub 12 that I had (and I know was incredibly accurate) and backed everything off and low and behold it now produces a healthy 24.8ft/lbs and 1/2MOA groups outdoor at 50m, which it was nowhere near with the longer barrel. I am very happy with it. 

So in my conclusion, there is every chance a .22 rifle producing 40ft/lbs can be good (if it has a good barrel and you can find a pellet that is happy being propelled at that speed) producing the kind of results you might expect. If either of these two conditions are not in place then I suspect you will be disappointed. Heavier pellets did not produce accurate results in either of my barrels. I will use my rf rifles if I need more terminal energy but I do understand some have uses for higher powers of air for specific persmissions. Should I have a need for ‘air only’ higher outputs I would personally investigate .25 as a caliber as I understand the pellets are more robust due to their physical size. 

My own findings and opinions FWIW, 👍

Edited April 1, 2019 by The Burpster
Typos

[scarecrow243]

because i have a choice if it was the case i had to use any weapon in the case of war i would what was available 

[Ultrastu]

1 hour ago, The Burpster said:

I’m not getting drawn into the argument going on above as I’ve seen it all before and undoubtedly will again...

So to answer your question constructively to the best of my experience and knowledge......... it’s depends....!

Hmmm on what? Well it had tried FAC back in the early 2000s when in all honesty everybody and his dog were making PCPs and with probably the exception of the Theoben Rapid none of them tamed big pressures and outputs. Times, marching, tolerances and, more importantly pellets have moved on producing some rifles that are solid performers up those grey areas.

I have found with my recently acquired FAC HW100 that power output is all relative if you want accuracy. So to quantify that it came with the 600mm barrel and was producing (all tested with the same JSB 18.3gn pellet) 25ft/lbs but should’ve been up nearer 30, so apart it came and all the balancing and tweaking that I could do were done. Got it up nearer 29 but accuracy was not what I wanted and expected. It was also making the valve burp and using too much air. Convinced it should be better I swapped the barrel for 410mm barrel from a sub 12 that I had and backed everything off and low and behold it now produces a healthy 24.8ft/lbs and 1/2MOA groups outdoor at 50m which it was nowhere near with the longer barrel. I am very happy with it. 

So in my conclusion, there is every chance a .22 rifle producing 40ft/lbs can be good (if it has a good barrel and you can find a pellet that is happy being propelled at that speed) producing the kind of results you might expect. If either of these two conditions are not in place then I suspect you will be disappointed. Heavier pellets did not produce accurate results in either of my barrels. I will use my rf rifles if I need more terminal energy but I do understand some have uses for higher powers of air for specific persmissions. Should I have a need for ‘air only’ higher outputs I would personally investigate .25 as a caliber as I understand the pellets are more robust due to their physical size. 

My own findings and opinions FWIW, 👍

Nice answer

.i run my fac .22 (bsa ultra se )  at 22 - 23 fpe .with light pellets .this is on a 305 mm barrel and with inch group at 70 yds when i do my bit and its not too windy ..

That is plenty of energy to drop any of the legal uk airgun quarry with head or body shots at that range. 

To my mind the only reason to go up in energy and pellet size is to gain more stability at longer ranges .this is best achived with a .25 cal fac .

Its all very well saying a bigger pellet hits  your quarry harder .but we dont shoot foxes or raccoons or wombats - or what ever here in the uk .so the notion of huge power for larger game is rather redundant ..

Edited April 1, 2019 by Ultrastu

[Bluebarrels]

1 hour ago, scarecrow243 said:

because i have a choice if it was the case i had to use any weapon in the case of war i would what was available 

Well in that case you would be using the Sa80 because that's available,funnily enough because that's the current issue to the UK military.

[Zetter]

Cheers all for the advice and comments on experience.

After having a look at prices and distances in the end I decided to scoot up Livens gun shop and bought the BSA R10 MK2 which was the personal gun of one of the guys in the shop. Huma reg fitted and the shroud has been shortened with a moderator added making it more handy than the usual monster shroud that came with. Hes even found the decent pellet for it with H+N Barracuda

 

 

Looking forward to having a play with it this week. 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Zetter

[Ultrastu]

Cool. 

Did he mention its shot count .ideal fill pressure and the energy it gives with the barra match ? 

[Old farrier]

19 hours ago, Bluebarrels said:

If I hit u with a 6lb lump hammer,or a 3lb lump hammer what's gonna hurt you more?

Not sure if you hit me with it but I know what will hurt more if I do it 😂😂

there would be no point in having a bigger hammer if it moved less metal than a small one 

just done experiment 

 cut  some 3/8 bar on the anvil 

1 blow with the sledgehammer 

3 blows with the 7lb hammer 

10 blows with the 3lb hammer 

hope your keeping well BB 

all the best 

of 

[Salop Matt]

My FAC Daystate Huntsman is running at 30ftlb with Bisley magnums and I find that fine for all uk air rifle legal quarry. 30ftlb is plenty of energy out beyond the distance you will use it. 

From memory a 21gn magnum at the muzzle giving 30ftlb equates to 11.5 ftlb @ 100 yards, so quarry shot at 100 yards if you had the accuracy is delivering the same energy as a point blank shot from a sub 12ftlb air rifle....... its going to be plenty of energy.

At 70 yards with a head shot its passing straight though the head with a good amount of energy transfer. Myself I wouldn't go past 35ftlb and find 30ftlb perfectly adequate and it works well on avian pest too.

ATB 

[Ultrastu]

Dont confuse momentum ie kenetic energy .with transfered energy .

The target /material you hit makes the biggest difference to how the projectile performs in terms of transfer of energy into the medium 

[zx10mike]

40 ft lbs could be a very clever investment if you don't mind spending a bit more on ammo. with slugs seeming to be the way to go having around double the bc of a pellet .our only real option has been to bring in slugs from abroad at great expense .i'm waiting on some nielson slugs that have cost £40 for 100 shipped just to try them . rumour has it jsb are going to do a slugs and if they do that is great news.most of the cost involved bringing slugs in is shipping. if they work well a bulk buy will be cost effective.just imaging 40ft lbs plus with a slug that has half the wind drift. plenty of info on line but if your going fac 35 ft lbs the wolf is a much better rifle imo.

mike

[Ultrastu]

So simple example .if you have a 10mm steel plate and you want to knock it over .then your best using as heavy a projectile as you can get .the kenetic energy being 100 % used on impact .most likely  to knock it over .small differences in velocity isnt goning to make much difference to the ability of the steel to topple ..

By comparison if your shooting soft flesh that is elastic in nature .and you want to create more than just a 5.5 mm hole but disrupt the flesh around the hole too .then a projectile that stops fast and dumps all or most of its energy will make a much wider wound channel than one that passes right through and deforms nil taking the energy down range .

To get this effect you need a fast projectile with a low bc .it will deform and expand creating the effect you want

Some people shoot steel and wood and other hard stuff and see how slow and heavy knocks it over or penetrates it well .and think wow thats great .much better at killing than fast and light .but rabbits and foxes arent made of steel or wood .they are made of elastic flesh and bullets can go right through them without imparting as much energy as they think .

 

[Whitebridges]

5 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Nice answer

.i run my fac .22 (bsa ultra se )  at 22 - 23 fpe .with light pellets .this is on a 305 mm barrel and with inch group at 70 yds when i do my bit and its not too windy ..

That is plenty of energy to drop any of the legal uk airgun quarry with head or body shots at that range. 

To my mind the only reason to go up in energy and pellet size is to gain more stability at longer ranges .this is best achived with a .25 cal fac .

Its all very well saying a bigger pellet hits  your quarry harder .but we dont shoot foxes or raccoons or wombats - or what ever here in the uk .so the notion of huge power for larger game is rather redundant ..

Nice answer. Sometimes we get brown hare in this area in plague proportions. They can weigh 9lbs plus. There's also the jolly old cormorant.... 

[Zetter]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Cool. 

Did he mention its shot count .ideal fill pressure and the energy it gives with the barra match ? 

31 ft/lb with Bara Match 

 

He was doing 30 shots before refilling from a 232 bar fill

 

 

[turbo33]

I think the point here is specifics and user preferences. 

Ultrastu, favours restricting his distances on paper to 70 yes, with reasonable  grouping " If he does his bit" and light winds.

Others, like myself, like to push the distances, still making sure as far as possible, accurate and humane shots. 

Eg: Ultrastu, 16grn pellet, circa 80O ft/sec, close on 30 ft/lbs. At 80yds yes, if  you can hit the target, 14ftlbs. Yup, more than enough for a rabbit, head shot,  pigeon centre mass. My preference is 21.4 gun pellet, better bc, so more accurate, no skirt  to enhance deformation and tumbling, @ 80yds, 20ftlbs. Some 40% higher. Less affected by wind etc, therefore again, more accurate and humane.

Now, a 22lr, subsonic at 80yds, delivers 82ft/lbs. I haven't seen a thread on here to say a 22lr is overkill.

Ballistics on paper, or real life in the field.

So all of you when shoot crows or wildfowl, should not be using shot size 4/5, as obviously 8/9 is perfectly adequate.

 

 

[Ultrastu]

Problem with that is the 8 or 9 shot is not only lighter but also much slower than the no5 at 40 yds so it is less effective .

But u knew that. 😉

Just now, Zetter said:

31 ft/lb with Bara Match 

 

He was doing 30 shots before refilling from a 232 bar fill

 

 

Id have expected either more shots or more energy from a 232 bar fill and a 15 inch barrel ? And a 200 cc bottle 

My ultra has 70 cc of air a 12 inch barrel and pushes a light 13 grn pellet at 870 fps for 23 fpe for about 30 shots.It will do 25 - 26 fpe with heavier 18 grn jsbs. 

(Dont know about barras not tried them )  so not far off your r10.

Oh and my ultra isnt regged so i only fill to 210 bar and shoot down to 135 bar .

[Ultrastu]

I'd personally expect 50  + shots on reg from 230 bar down to 120  at 30 fpe .

At least. 

[turbo33]

3 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Problem with that is the 8 or 9 shot is not only lighter but also much slower than the no5 at 40 yds so it is less effective .

But u knew that. 😉

You never give up do you!! You've completely un done your argument........see above........over an out!

[Ultrastu]

No i didnt .

 

[Zetter]

To be Fair to him Stu he did say he probably wasn't  running it to the end of the reg when I get chance I will do a full shot string over the Chrono im thinking it will do more personally im thinking 40-50 sounds more likely 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Zetter

[Ultrastu]

Fast and light.   FAST AND LIGHT .

not slow and light 

Not slow and heavy 

Fast and heavy is good obviously  but there is the trade off. 

Just now, Zetter said:

To be Fair to him Stu he did say he probably wasn't  running it to the end of the reg when I get chance I will do a full shot string over the Chrono im thinking it will do more personally im thinking 40-50 sounds more likely 

Should .

Id expect it to come off reg at around 120 bar .

What length is the barrel. ? 

[Zetter]

If as he says the shroud has been but to barrel length its 15"