Old Birmingham made Shotgun

[Kon]

9 hours ago, Gunman said:

Webley and Scott made guns for so many makers , big names and some that you will never of heard of . Before the Trade Discriptions Act in the early 70's guns for the likes of Wm Evans John Dickson , Bland  ,Cogswell and Harrison left the W & S factory fully finished bearing the names mentioned . After the TDA  they had to be marked as "made for " . This would be on the rib or under the forend the action signed with the name of the name of the "maker ".  Many guns left the factory in the white as barreled actions , some stocked  to be finished by the purchaser . 

I once tried to record all the companies Webley made guns for but still occasional came across a Webley actioned gun that I had not previously seen .

Evans , Lang ,Atkin , Dickson , Cogswell, Chubb , Westley Richards , Churchill, Holland & Holland , Fletcher , Bland , Linsley , Army & Navy , to name but a few .

 

Thank you for all the information! Indeed it's very interesting! I would love to see a PHD grade work on the subject!!! Such an interesting and full of history discipline!!!

[Gunman]

I supose its a little insider info , picked up in the 9 years I worked there .

[Gunman]

11 hours ago, old'un said:

Interesting, thank you, as you say it was staggering the amount of guns they produced and not just for the UK market.

Its such a shame the way the Birmingham gun quarter was ripped apart and is now but a shadow of its former self, spent many an hour around the quarter in my younger days (60s/70s) always popped in to see Ben Wild (if he wasn’t in the pub) you just had to hope you caught him in one of his good moods, Brian virtually runs the business now manly barrel blacking, he did some barrels for me not long ago and did a cracking job, just wonder how long the remaining businesses can survive.

 

 

Thanks again for the info, always something new to learn.

Dont quite know what the situation is at Wild,s .Whether or not Brian will be able to continue trading under the Wild name as their were other family members involved , Ben's Daughter who I think did book work . 

It is a great shame the way the trade has declined but the reasons are many . It is also a disgrace that as the Gun Trade put Birmingham on the map so to speak , yet there is not one street or building named after any of the great names associated with the Gun Trade add the fact that subsequent councils have tried to expunge this part of Birmingham's history from the records including trying to have all mention of the "Gun Quarter removed  as it "would make visitors to the City think it was a criminal area " .

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, lots of interesting posts and information, 👍  Army and Navy shotguns have an interesting history as well, sadly English gun making has been in decline for many years when in the 1960s you could see a full gun makers row at the game fair  spend time watching engraver, stocker, barrel maker, etc  I use to spend hours in the Oxford gun shop Venables

Edited May 25, 2020 by oldypigeonpopper

[Kon]

On my attempt to restore the gun, I find out that is a Linsley Brothers made! Thanks again for the answers! 

[Gunman]

Linsley Bros. sold it but who made it is still a mystery .I have worked on a   Linsley side lock that was made by Robertsons of London , the then owners  Boss and the gun was identical to a Boss  in every way .

Webley and Scott made guns for them , so I will assume that they bought/commissioned  guns from numerous sources over time , down to price and demand .

[Kon]

Probably, this is the case (W&S), commissioned to Linsley Bros. It's good though I found a name on it. I ll have to re-registrate it now, since on the shotgun papers for the moment is written as "unknown brand"

[old'un]

where on the gun did you find the name?

[Gunman]

I dont believe the gun was made by W & S . It would have had a number   on the action and barrels and locks  that related to a W&S order /record  , Linslely's number would have been additional if requested .

W&S made thousands of guns of different types over the years and needed to have the parts numbered for internal identification during manufacture as different parts went to different sections for heat treatment , metal colouring ,engraving etc. so needed ID No's . 

Even guns that were made specifically for someone having left the factory with the name and number of that "maker" would have a Webley number or part of it on some of the internal parts .

[enfieldspares]

On 24/05/2020 at 19:50, Gunman said:

I once tried to record all the companies Webley made guns for but still occasional came across a Webley actioned gun that I had not previously seen .

Evans , Lang ,Atkin , Dickson , Cogswell, Chubb , Westley Richards , Churchill, Holland & Holland , Fletcher , Bland , Linsley , Army & Navy , to name but a few .

 

I read all of the originals of Webley factory books some thirty years ago now. Very interesting the shotgun information. Many, many, guns made for William Evans including comments such as "3rd Grade - To be engraved and finished as 1st" and against G E Lewis "No further credit to be extended under any circumstances." I read them mostly however for the pistols and revolvers but the shotgun stuff was very eye opening as to who's product was actually a Webley made product. And the revolvers. Many .455 Mark VI were after WWI re-finished, the barrels cut down to four inches, then re-numbered and sold as a large batch government purchase to the newly formed Irish Free State (as then called).

Edited June 4, 2020 by enfieldspares

[Gunman]

Webley once claimed to be able to make any type or pattern of gun or rifle  .The Venacontractor 12 to 20 bore for Lang or 75,000 Chassepot rifle for the French Government .

They also had a large and diverse engineering division that made tools , oscillating cooling fans  ,outside contracts ,machining for the car industry , air commpressors , etc . 

After WW2 an attempt was made at building a two seater sports car dubbed the " Flying  Bullet ".

 

Although it was in the latter years 1968/1977 I did pick up quite a bit of Webley history from some of the old hands , men who had worked for W & S all there lives , about the history of the firm in my time there ,as well as seeing some of the guns in drawing office that never saw production , pump up air rifles , a .22LR self loading rifle and the revolver collection , those made by Webley and those of others bought in for examination.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Gunman

[enfieldspares]

Yes. Webley at the end were actually experimenting with a swing out cylinder revolver. And made a small number of break open Mark IV based revolvers is .38 Special. They also made the either the Farquhar-Hill rifle or the Thorneycroft or one of those pre-WWI British self-loading rifles.

Edited June 6, 2020 by enfieldspares

[bruno22rf]

And then, as many great British Industries, they were shot down by ignorance, self belief, a total lack of Marketing strategy and financial investment or interest along with a Management team that could not arrange a Bun fight in a Bakery?

[paulinlincs]

On 03/06/2020 at 19:50, Gunman said:

I dont believe the gun was made by W & S . It would have had a number   on the action and barrels and locks  that related to a W&S order /record  , Linslely's number would have been additional if requested .

W&S made thousands of guns of different types over the years and needed to have the parts numbered for internal identification during manufacture as different parts went to different sections for heat treatment , metal colouring ,engraving etc. so needed ID No's . 

Even guns that were made specifically for someone having left the factory with the name and number of that "maker" would have a Webley number or part of it on some of the internal parts .

Hi Gunman 

I have an old hammer gun ( maker unknown) but there is the number 5 stamped on the locks and the action. Would these be the numbers you refer to from the W&S factory? 

Sorry to hijack this interesting thread. 

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, bruno22rf said:

And then, as many great British Industries, they were shot down by ignorance, self belief, a total lack of Marketing strategy and financial investment or interest along with a Management team that could not arrange a Bun fight in a Bakery?

Well in Webley's specific case it was actually the Birmingham Inner Ring Road, the Spanish and Roy Jenkins.

Edited June 6, 2020 by enfieldspares

[Gunman]

36 minutes ago, paulinlincs said:

Hi Gunman 

I have an old hammer gun ( maker unknown) but there is the number 5 stamped on the locks and the action. Would these be the numbers you refer to from the W&S factory? 

Sorry to hijack this interesting thread. 

I would think it would be at least a 3 figure No if it was a W & S , which would be the last 3 digits of a longer 6 figure No.

[paulinlincs]

15 minutes ago, Gunman said:

I would think it would be at least a 3 figure No if it was a W & S , which would be the last 3 digits of a longer 6 figure No.

Thank you. 

[Kon]

On 03/06/2020 at 19:52, old'un said:

where on the gun did you find the name?

On the rib "Linsley Bros Lands Lane Leeds"

[enfieldspares]

I remember LInsley Brothers when I was living in Leeds in late 1970s. They were down near the City Station then. Only went in a couple of times as in truth like many small "family" gunshops in that time they didn't have much to offer and of course John Longstaff was at Pudsey. A far far better place to visit if you were a shooter back then.

Edited June 7, 2020 by enfieldspares