Colonel Peter Hawkers punt gun

[mudpatten]

I have to say that I agree. The Beinecke Digital Collection of the Carnegie library are looking to do as you suggest and have made a start. Part of their problem is the sheer volume of manuscripts relating to a huge variety of subjects,that they hold. It has been some years since I looked at this so it might be worth revisiting for a committed researcher.The suggestion you make has been fielded to BASC before. It is greeted with enthusiasm and then seems to get lost in the long grass.

My understanding of Copyright law is not comprehensive but, having been dead for over 70 years, Hawker no longer holds the Copyright. Providing one did not reprint the original Hawker diaries in their entirity, or large parts thereof, the Carnegie Library has no objection to them being used for reference and quotation purposes.

If anyone categorically knows anything about copyright I`d be interested to hear their opinion.

 

[manton]

On 05/09/2020 at 19:45, mudpatten said:

Probably not. They are available from the Carnegie Library at Yale University as photocopies but getting all the diaries done this way is quite expensive. Having them copied electronically - photographed -, and transmitted electronically might be cheaper but it`s been years since I had any dealings with them. The fees themselves are quite modest, but you`re paying for the time taken on the physical task with so many individual diaries. They are quite quick and efficient should you elect to go down that route.

There are a number of older, and complete,photocopies of all the diaries in the UK but the owners, for reasons best known to themselves, are very reluctant to let anybody even look at them, never mind copy them.

It`s taken a mate of mine some twenty five years of badgering to get a look at some of the UK located copies of the original documents.

Were you looking for something in particular?

Thank you for your very informative reply.  I mainly  want to determine the following , .Were  Payne Gallweys  ammendments applied to all topics in the diary consistently. I have a feeling he tried to boost the game shooting to make it look more in line with the huge bags of people like Lord Walshingham in his own time. I believe Gallwey also had his own idea of a ,,wildfowler ,, and distorted Hawker to fit .I think on the other hand that the sections about the production of his guns ,gunmakers foreign and visits to industry are fairly accurate. I really like his account of his effotrts to find Joseph Brazier the lockmaker and his meal with him of pie and strong beer. 

 

 

[manton]

On 06/09/2020 at 08:16, Pushandpull said:

As I recall (possibly incorrectly) the late David Grayling was advertising a copy at about £1500 some years ago, and it was said to be one of three produced at the same time.

It is a great pity that significant material such as this is not available for study, even as a microfiche or online. BASC could become a repository for diaries and similar material but unfortunately the organisation shows no interest in the history and traditions of wildfowling. 

You Sir have expressed my own thoughts about the matter precisely .Strange thing is that I for some years was sent book lists from David Grayling to whom I was directed following an inquirey to B.A.S.C.. During those years antique book prices were at a premium, shooting books  now seem to have fallen quite a lot. I like you ,cannot understand why B.A.S.C. did not purchase a copy and make it available to members in some form for research . Who knows it may still not be too late !

 

[Feltwad]

My records show that Christies sold a punt gun  which was once owned by Hawker in the 1990,s for £6670 

Image enclosed of firing a punt gun  at the 1977 Hlkham Country Fair 

Feldwad

[Pushandpull]

That of course is the enormous "Irish Tom". You can get an idea of the unusual size of the piece from how it compares with the boat - a 24 foot double. I can't remember what it weighs but you certainly need several chaps to move it with any ease.

[del.gue]

 

[Pushandpull]

Graham Downing's book (see my post of Aug 25) also gives some information and pictures of this gun.

In all honesty I wonder what the gun was built for - perhaps to use on a steam or sail gunning yacht ? Or does someone out there know ? It is very big and its unwieldiness is why Justice cut it down (exact details vary).

[Feltwad]

Alfred Clayton was gunmaker to Hawker after Manton when he lived at Long parish , Clayton  later moved and  he  opened  a gunmaker  shop in Southampton. Here he built not only percussion fowling guns but also tube lock fowling guns

Feltwad 

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Feltwad said:

Alfred Clayton was gunmaker to Hawker after Manton when he lived at Long parish , Clayton  later moved and  he  opened  a gunmaker  shop in Southampton. Here he built not only percussion fowling guns but also tube lock fowling guns

Feltwad 

Was the firm later take over by claybourogh?

[Feltwad]

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Was the firm later take over by claybourogh?

 I do not  have any evidence  of that in my research.

Feltwad 

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Feltwad said:

 I do not  have any evidence  of that in my research.

Feltwad 

Thanks for the reply I ask through curiosity as they seem to follow one disappears and then another appears 👍👍

[mudpatten]

Some years ago I cleaned Irish Tom at the same time as Hawkers double gun. Weighing in at over 300lbs.Irish Tom literally takes three people to lift it. If I remember correctly, it was built for an irish professional punter named Grimes, but what was going through his head at the time I can`t imagine. It was originally built as a muzzle loader which might have made it a bit lighter but its still luicrously heavy.The conversion was carried out by engineer Herbert Coade, not Greeners as is often stated, to a plan by Stanley Duncan.Coade may have done work for Greener but he was not employed by them.It would have had a noticeably negative effect on the seakeeping qualities of the punt upon which it was mounted.

Alfred Clayton moved from Lymington to William Burnetts former premises in Sothampton in the 1850`s. His niche speciality regarding well designed punt guns was eventuall occupied by Patstone of Southampton who went through several parterships ie Patstone and Clarke, Patstone and Cox etc.

Hawkers indirect relationship with Payne Galwey is complex. As far as I know they never met, RPG would have been 5 or 6 when Hawker died. I`m not a great fan of RPG since he put forward a number of ideas about puntgunning that where entirely his own and flew in the face of established functional tradition. He also tampered with many of the diary entries to cloud the reputation of Hawker. However, and I only learned this recently having pried it from a well known authority on Hawker, almost with a crowbar - the Hawkers family actually asked RPG to besmirch, by altering diary entries, the character of his second wife who was roundly detested by Hawkers children.

 

[manton]

This information sheds considerable light on the diary and explains quite a lot about what happened .I ,for a long time have  had questions about Hawkers second wife . I know that it may be reading too much between the lines but his friendship with Captain S and the speed with which Hawker married his widow seems a  little strange. Compared to the amount of material about his first wife and his exertions on her behalf during their tour of Europe his second wife is rarely mentioned except during the period of his decline and death.        I would like a heart specalist to examine his diary and to comment on his health problems .He seems to have had some sort of heart failure and I often wonder if his use of drugs like Huxhams tincture of bark ,which is quinine and other mercuric preparations played a part in this. Hawkers family had problems of their own ,Peter Lanoe his son died quite young .   RPG appears to have rubbed quite a few people up the wrong way .I happened to be reading Experts on Guns and Shooting by Teasdale Buckel and Gallwey was being heavily criticised for stupid remarks he had made about Birmingham made guns and his failure to withdraw these even when guns which he had lauded as being made in London actualy came from Birmingham

Edited September 9, 2020 by manton
Mistake

[mudpatten]

RPG actually gets even worse! He made himself extremely unpopular when based at Lindisfarne by instructing his puntsman to go punting at every opportunity, even when he himself was not there! He had a long running feud with local puntgunners concerning this apparent attempt at ruining the sport of his competitors.

The book "Saltwater, webbed feet and blackpowder" by John Richards and Julian Novorol gives a revealing insight into the darker recesses of his character.

[Feltwad]

Enclosed is a image of Alfred Claytons 6 bore tube lock fowler

Feltwad

[marsh man]

One of the most enjoyable threads I have followed for ages , I was lucky enough to see some of the punt guns you were talking about at the Holkham Game Fair and would had dearly loved to had seen them in action in there day , a sight we are unlikely to see again .

THANKS for sharing .

[manton]

Colonel Hawker had some dealings with Burnett of Southampton. In a letter to his part time servant and  fellow gunner Buckle he writes                                    Mr Buckle I write a few lines just to say I will be obliged to you if you would look in at Mr Burnetts sometime and stir him up about the gun as I shall no doubt be at Southampton in less than a fortnight and then I should like to see the gun in a forward state with a nice small lock on  and the new breech in                    He then goes on to describe Burnett as a capital ingenious man. Hawker had recently  observed a demonstrated by a Mr Berney of  a new patent cartridge to shoot to 200 hundred yards and a method of mounting a gun on a donkeys saddle to shoot plover inland and suggested Burnett,s gun would be suitable.for this .I cannot see enthusiasm lasting long for the donkey saddle method and the gun became as he suggests to Buckle ,,the best little stanchion gun in England.,,

Edited September 10, 2020 by manton
Spelling

[mudpatten]

Feltwad,

I really like the look of your Clayton 6 bore. Interesting to see a gun of that bore which doesn`t look like it was made entirely in Birmingham. I`d be surprised if Clayton was able to forge his own barrels but he always seems to have used/ordered a very distinctive shape to the barrel which carries most of the width, and weight, much closer to the breech end than many of the other designs of barrel profile. His punt guns have a similar taper profile.

I`ve been lucky enough to handle a number of Clayton big bores and they are remarkable lively in the hand when compared to the average comparable offering from Birmingham.

I especially like the lock which looks to have been made entirely in house by Clayton. Unadorned with pointless engraving and with a large lock plate housing relatively low compression vee springs making them far less likely to break. It also sports a large trigger guard to facilitate wearing gloves. Absolutely lovely!

Do you still shoot it?

[manton]

52 minutes ago, mudpatten said:

Feltwad,

I really like the look of your Clayton 6 bore. Interesting to see a gun of that bore which doesn`t look like it was made entirely in Birmingham. I`d be surprised if Clayton was able to forge his own barrels but he always seems to have used/ordered a very distinctive shape to the barrel which carries most of the width, and weight, much closer to the breech end than many of the other designs of barrel profile. His punt guns have a similar taper profile.

I`ve been lucky enough to handle a number of Clayton big bores and they are remarkable lively in the hand when compared to the average comparable offering from Birmingham.

I especially like the lock which looks to have been made entirely in house by Clayton. Unadorned with pointless engraving and with a large lock plate housing relatively low compression vee springs making them far less likely to break. It also sports a large trigger guard to facilitate wearing gloves. Absolutely lovely!

Do you still shoot it?

A beautiful example of this type of gun made by a maker who understood the needs of wildfowlers.Mudpatten,s comments raise an interesting point  Do you shoot this gun and if so how do you get around the problem of the little primer tubes ,are these still available or can a substitute be made?

[Feltwad]

21 hours ago, mudpatten said:

Feltwad,

I really like the look of your Clayton 6 bore. Interesting to see a gun of that bore which doesn`t look like it was made entirely in Birmingham. I`d be surprised if Clayton was able to forge his own barrels but he always seems to have used/ordered a very distinctive shape to the barrel which carries most of the width, and weight, much closer to the breech end than many of the other designs of barrel profile. His punt guns have a similar taper profile.

I`ve been lucky enough to handle a number of Clayton big bores and they are remarkable lively in the hand when compared to the average comparable offering from Birmingham.

I especially like the lock which looks to have been made entirely in house by Clayton. Unadorned with pointless engraving and with a large lock plate housing relatively low compression vee springs making them far less likely to break. It also sports a large trigger guard to facilitate wearing gloves. Absolutely lovely!

Do you still shoot it?

Not now I stopped using it when the lead shot became law for fowling , has for the tubes these I made from  model copper pipe the compound  was from percussion caps

Feltwad

 

20 hours ago, manton said:

A beautiful example of this type of gun made by a maker who understood the needs of wildfowlers.Mudpatten,s comments raise an interesting point  Do you shoot this gun and if so how do you get around the problem of the little primer tubes ,are these still available or can a substitute be made?

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Feltwad

[manton]

Thank you for your information which has shed a iot of light on tubelock guns for me . Clayton certainly had lots of large bore shotgun experience . Hawker had him repairing worn parts of his large gun in the kitchen at Longparish and instructed him about the construction of a punt gun for a member of the nobility.

On 12/09/2020 at 17:11, Feltwad said:

 

 

nobility.

Edited September 14, 2020 by manton
Mistake

[B725]

On 09/09/2020 at 19:28, Feltwad said:

Enclosed is a image of Alfred Claytons 6 bore tube lock fowler

Feltwad

Excuse my ignorance but what is a tube lock?

[manton]

1 hour ago, B725 said:

Excuse my ignorance but what is a tube lock?

A tubelock is a muzzle loading percussion gun which uses a small tube filled with primer compound , the tube fits into a touch hole ,much like a flintlock  and is struck by the guns hammer causing ignition.   Joseph Manton invented it but it was quickly replaced by the nipple snd cap system.in most guns except large ones where its use was seen as giving a more certain ignition in poor weather conditions.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by manton

[Feltwad]

Joseph Manton  made the first in the UK tube lock guns  this was around 1810 the beginning of the percussion era ,Forsythe  held the patent for the fultmate compound for which he sued any gun maker that used it , Manton used it in his tubes  which later made him bankrupt from Forsythe. The tube lock was favoured by wildfowlers  the tubes were filled with fultimate and rested on what is known has a anvil with one end   entered in a touch hole ,the hammer nose has a device which is called a spade  and when it strikes the tube which ignites and fires into the touch hole igniting the main charge, the hammer nose has on the side a shield  which stops the tube from flying out from the igniting and to prevent anyone standing along side  been hit. Ignition is just the same and has quick has a percussion cap  tubelocks were also made for game shooting and also favoured by live pigeon  match shooters  the for runner to trap shooting . 

Feltwad

[B725]

Thank you both the history of the gun is quite fascinating 👍👍👍