410 Frustration.. again.

[Salmo9]

Well, I’ve been struggling to resize used 410 cases with the MEC 600 junior for some time now with Eley fibre cases being the worst so they’ve all been binned. Even Hull high pheasant once fired cases can sometimes bind on me even though I’m using case lube as recommended. 

So.. I’ve now shifted to new 76mm Fiocchi primed cases and have purchased a Ballistic Product, super crown crimper to replace the existing spindex, if only it was that easy..!! Every completed case has a 2.5mm hole in the centre of the closed crimp. I’ve ran out of lever cam adjustment and raised and lowered the case closure plunger on the final station, all to no avail.. The super crown crimper mounted on the turret can’t be adjusted lower as it buckles the 410 case when the loader lever is at full throw. All MEC 600 junior settings have been double-checked for 3” 410 cases. Has anyone else experienced these issues..?? Me thinks it’s perhaps a USA loading machine (imperial)with after market USA bits (imperial) trying to deal with continental cases (metric).

Over-shot cards are now on order and I’ve already got the GAEP RTO jobby so looks like I’ll be shooting 21 gram, fibre, RTO cartridges this season.

Cheers - Salmo9.

[Stonepark]

Could try put a OSC under the crimp, would not do any harm, if not getting centre closure and want to continue with MEC.

 

Alternatively, 21g rto is what I shoot and have no issues with.

[Walker570]

Use the same press for all my 410s and have never had a problem once the dies where set up correctly which does take a little bit of trail and eror.  The crimper and crimp finisher , the same. They also take a bit of trial and error before getting it perfect.  I have never had to use any lube whatsoever.  I shoot nothing but 410 and load a couple of thousand a year.   Certainly the Fiocchi cases work best for me.    I use fibre wads, SP3 and 19.7g of 7s to great effect.

[Salmo9]

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

Could try put a OSC under the crimp, would not do any harm, if not getting centre closure and want to continue with MEC.

 

Alternatively, 21g rto is what I shoot and have no issues with.

Thanks Stonepark - sounds like a good idea.. Was trying out the new loads at Westlands on Friday - Hodgdon H110, 12mm fibre wad and 21 grams of 71/2 lead. Punchy with a clean burn, no powder residue in barrels. Broke clays too, when I did my bit. Downside was a fair bit of loose shot rolling about in me pockets..

The crimp closure on the new Fiocchi cases looks great.. apart from that bl**dy 2.5 mm hole.. 

[Salmo9]

2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Use the same press for all my 410s and have never had a problem once the dies where set up correctly which does take a little bit of trail and eror.  The crimper and crimp finisher , the same. They also take a bit of trial and error before getting it perfect.  I have never had to use any lube whatsoever.  I shoot nothing but 410 and load a couple of thousand a year.   Certainly the Fiocchi cases work best for me.    I use fibre wads, SP3 and 19.7g of 7s to great effect.

Thanks Walker570 - I’ve just miked my MEC resizing die and its 0.468” plus a new Fiocchi case at 0.467” however my once fired Fiocchi case is 0.470.. Like you, I shoot a Yildiz OU but wonder if my chambers are slightly larger therefore causing me grief when having to resize the ‘fire-formed’ empty. The actual resizing downstroke on my MEC is OK, it’s the upstroke that causes me lock ups and case binding then it’s a bit of dismantling and quick trip to the shed to punch the offending case out. 

As and when I do use a once fired hull, I have no problem with the MEC spindex and final crimp finish.. Looks as good as the pro’s...

[Walker570]

Hmmm ????  occasionally have one hang up but on the tube which is easily pulled down by hand but never had to knock on out of the re sizing ring.  I'll mic mine up tomorrow see if it is similar. The chambers on my Yilditz give me the impression they are tight as I have had one or two hang up after firing but very rare.   Check the inner of the re sizing ring  see if there is a high spot.

[Gas seal]

Hi maybe the re-prime punch isn’t (pushing) the case out of the re-sizing ring on the upstroke . It could be set for 65mm cases with shorter brass and doesn’t clear the longer brass. . It’s better to do small adjustments at a time. I bought the re-size and re-prime parts for .410 for a MEC junior and rto. I find Fiocchi cases better. Once fired Cheddite cases with fibre wads seems to swell and l couldn’t get the plastic to re-size. I find if you sit back and give it a good coat of looking at you will see the problems. Good luck.

[hawkfanz]

ive tried a few cases and even when resized and not loaded,they wont go back in my mossy,but fiocchis do,so im only buying that make in future to reload,i also couldn,t get a crimp,no matter what i did it crushed the case so i do roll turnover instead,more usefull when trimming cases down too.

[Gas seal]

Hi the Cheddite cases I have are a bit shorter than the Fiocchi cases.  Cheddite loaded with fibre or mini bior wads Swell the plastic. When I reload them l couldn’t chamber them in a Mossburg.410 I’m sure the chamber is tighter. I was given once fired 65mm Eley trap cases and l put a rto on them they were ok in the Mossburg. I find with the Mossburg its the crimp that could be slightly bulged. You could try a new loaded Fiocchi Cartridge to set up your final crimp. With small adjustment you should have a good crimp. I’ve chambered cartridges in a Yildiz but they didn’t chamber in the Mossberg. The joys of reloading.

[hawkfanz]

thanks gs will bear that mind in future.

[Salmo9]

Hi Guys - you’re probably aware of this but if you’re using new cases you’ll need a decent pre crimper such as GAEP, Siarm or Ballistic Products. These devices effectively cut/form the six or eight folds needed to produce a tidy crimp finish on unfired cases. The standard plastic MEC ‘spindex’ is good for used cases but not good enough for new in my opinion.. that’s my experience.

And, when you’ve bought, installed and calibrated said device and start producing those perfect crimp finishes, please let me know how you did it..

As for used 410 cases - once used Eley and Cheddite fibre cases are binned by me and some of my twice used Fiocchi have swollen plastic cases too, after pushing fibre wads through them.

Been reading some archived PW threads and the early consensus way back was - 1) new primed cases. 2) hand load components. 3) RTO finish. job done..

[Gas seal]

Hi you’re right about the cases it may be the pressure’s in the.410 . Pre-crimp makes a difference. The us data used Fiocchi and Cheddite cases and a lot use over shot cards. Sometimes you can feel when the cartridges are right before the handle reaches its full cycle. I didn’t crimp.410 just rto. I think if you persevere you will get there. It’s a great cartridge.

[Salmo9]

3 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi you’re right about the cases it may be the pressure’s in the.410 . Pre-crimp makes a difference. The us data used Fiocchi and Cheddite cases and a lot use over shot cards. Sometimes you can feel when the cartridges are right before the handle reaches its full cycle. I didn’t crimp.410 just rto. I think if you persevere you will get there. It’s a great cartridge.

Spot on Gas Seal.. this reloading lark needs a bit of intuition and definitely a tentative feel for how each stage functions and delivers. I find myself now gently pinching the case at the base - plastic interface during crimping in a bid to detect case collapse/bulging which for me, happens at this point on the final straight. I know then to either adjust the crimp plunger and/or cam or alter the wad size or put less shot in.. Deep joy. Thankfully, I’ve not wasted too many brand new primed Fiocchi cases but oddly enough, still enjoying these challenges..

[Gas seal]

Hi it looks like the shot column is a bit high. You could try trimming the fibre wad if it’s ok you could see if any smaller wads are available.lt can only be a small amount. I think this is why USA data used over powder card under the crimp. I use a card under the crimp in 10gauge when l use buffer. 10gauge crimp is easier to adjust. I would keep at it you will get there. 

[Walker570]

8 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi the Cheddite cases I have are a bit shorter than the Fiocchi cases.  Cheddite loaded with fibre or mini bior wads Swell the plastic. When I reload them l couldn’t chamber them in a Mossburg.410 I’m sure the chamber is tighter. I was given once fired 65mm Eley trap cases and l put a rto on them they were ok in the Mossburg. I find with the Mossburg its the crimp that could be slightly bulged. You could try a new loaded Fiocchi Cartridge to set up your final crimp. With small adjustment you should have a good crimp. I’ve chambered cartridges in a Yildiz but they didn’t chamber in the Mossberg. The joys of reloading.

I finish all of my 410s with a GAEP spinner(Folkestone Engineering) this solves the problem of the slight bulging on the rim of the crimp.  Be VERY careful using one of these spinners and set the presure just right. It is very easy to put too much on and bulge the case.   I put a smear of WD40 on the spinner which makes it much easier to hold the cartridge when spinning as it will bind and spin the case.... result burnt fingers.

The very slightest bulge in a 410 case and it will not feed or will be hard to insert in the chamber.

[Salmo9]

On 17/10/2020 at 22:21, Walker570 said:

Hmmm ????  occasionally have one hang up but on the tube which is easily pulled down by hand but never had to knock on out of the re sizing ring.  I'll mic mine up tomorrow see if it is similar. The chambers on my Yilditz give me the impression they are tight as I have had one or two hang up after firing but very rare.   Check the inner of the re sizing ring  see if there is a high spot.

Hi Walker570 - did you manage to mike up your resizing ring on the MEC yet..? Also, I’ve noticed my .410 barrels are proofed 10.2mm which is a tad smaller than the expected 10.4mm, not that it’ll have any relevance to the chamber dimensions apart from potentially higher pressures. Be interested to know what other Yildiz .410’s barrels are measured at.. Thanks.

[Walker570]

Not done it yet, been a bit busy this morning. I am pretty certain without measuring that the tolerances on my gun are tight.  Fiocchi factory drop in the chamber no problem, the Hull High pheasant I tried, brilliant cartridge performance wise.... the odd one I had to help in. My reloads, I have to slide those in with just a bit of help.  I'll get around to having alook tonight.  I have not measured the chokes but pretty certain the full choke tubes I use are just that FULL CHOKE because on pattern testing at a measured(tape) distance of 35yrds they are all inside a 30 inch circle.  When we think about that, at 17yrds that relates to 15 inches,   26yrds  22inches, so anything under that 35 yrds means shooting has to be accurate.  The poplar trees in my wood average about 85ft high (28yrds) and a bird skimming the top of those you would consider a pretty good bird.

No disrespect meant at all but there are more guns who over estmate distance than under estimate.    Got off kilter a bit there but it is all relevant.

[Stonepark]

15 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I put a smear of WD40 on the spinner which makes it much easier to hold the cartridge when spinning as it will bind and spin the case.... result burnt fingers.

I sit the case in a Lee press shell holder in the pillar drill vice and before starting use a non- reusable shell  with a good drop or two of oil (in my case ballistol) to heat up the RTO spinner by doing a 1\2 inch deep RTO and then during actual use, every 4 cases, I use an oil dampened finger ( 1\2 a drop) to skirt around the outside of the case to keep from RTO lubed and prevent binding or overheating of shell case.

[Salmo9]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Not done it yet, been a bit busy this morning. I am pretty certain without measuring that the tolerances on my gun are tight.  Fiocchi factory drop in the chamber no problem, the Hull High pheasant I tried, brilliant cartridge performance wise.... the odd one I had to help in. My reloads, I have to slide those in with just a bit of help.  I'll get around to having alook tonight.  I have not measured the chokes but pretty certain the full choke tubes I use are just that FULL CHOKE because on pattern testing at a measured(tape) distance of 35yrds they are all inside a 30 inch circle.  When we think about that, at 17yrds that relates to 15 inches,   26yrds  22inches, so anything under that 35 yrds means shooting has to be accurate.  The poplar trees in my wood average about 85ft high (28yrds) and a bird skimming the top of those you would consider a pretty good bird.

No disrespect meant at all but there are more guns who over estmate distance than under estimate.    Got off kilter a bit there but it is all relevant.

Thanks Walker570.. as for chokes I currently run half in bottom barrel and three quarter in top and I’m collecting two more multi chokes tomorrow from my local dealer (£15.00 each, which is reasonable I suppose). Now, as for barrel proof, you’ll find this information under the forearm, as previously said, mines 10.2mm not 10.4mm as expected. Not a lot in it but I’d like to know what other Yildiz 410 users have.. 

[Walker570]

3 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I sit the case in a Lee press shell holder in the pillar drill vice and before starting use a non- reusable shell  with a good drop or two of oil (in my case ballistol) to heat up the RTO spinner by doing a 1\2 inch deep RTO and then during actual use, every 4 cases, I use an oil dampened finger ( 1\2 a drop) to skirt around the outside of the case to keep from RTO lubed and prevent binding or overheating of shell case.

Very similar. I have a recess in a block of wood and do the finger wipe with WD40.  Low setting to a count of 4.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Walker570

[Salmo9]

Quick update folks.. got in touch with MEC and they stated that the resizing die should have an ID of 0.470” - 0.473”. Mine sits at 0.470” so it’s going to be a bit tight. Now, they also advised ensuring the deprime punch is concentric with the resize ring which I’d assumed would have been the case, not so on my machine. So, after some additional fiddling the situation has improved.

Now have a bunch of once used, high pheasant cases sporting full crimp closures Hull would be proud of, loaded with 20gms of 7’s sitting on fibre wads, driven by Federal 209A primers and Hodgdon H110 powder. Also collecting two additional chokes for the wee Yildiz today too.. Here’s one happy chappy..

Cheers..

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Progress!

[sitsinhedges]

1 hour ago, Salmo9 said:

Quick update folks.. got in touch with MEC and they stated that the resizing die should have an ID of 0.470” - 0.473”. Mine sits at 0.470” so it’s going to be a bit tight. Now, they also advised ensuring the deprime punch is concentric with the resize ring which I’d assumed would have been the case, not so on my machine. So, after some additional fiddling the situation has improved.

Now have a bunch of once used, high pheasant cases sporting full crimp closures Hull would be proud of, loaded with 20gms of 7’s sitting on fibre wads, driven by Federal 209A primers and Hodgdon H110 powder. Also collecting two additional chokes for the wee Yildiz today too.. Here’s one happy chappy..

Cheers..

What's the 20gram recipe?

[Salmo9]

6 minutes ago, sitsinhedges said:

What's the 20gram recipe?

Well, here goes.. case: once fired Hull ‘high pheasant’.  Powder: Hodgdon H110 - 14 grains.. Primer: Federal 209A. Wads: 2mm OPW plus 12mm Fibre wad. Crimp closure too..

Sorry if I appear a bit ‘officious’ here but usual caveats apply, so if you’d like to replicate, please use caution in assembly and no responsibility can be accepted if it all goes south.. I’ll add that these loads function in my OU but have not been proof house or pattern tested yet..

Earlier I’d found a published load of 21grms using 15 grains of H110 plus Fiocchi F616 primers. I’ve no access to 616 primers so substituted with what I had - Federals 209A (hottest, I know) primer and reduced powder by one grain.. Load was reduced to 20grms to get a decent crimp..

[sitsinhedges]

8 minutes ago, Salmo9 said:

Well, here goes.. case: once fired Hull ‘high pheasant’.  Powder: Hodgdon H110 - 14 grains.. Primer: Federal 209A. Wads: 2mm OPW plus 12mm Fibre wad. Crimp closure too..

Sorry if I appear a bit ‘officious’ here but usual caveats apply, so if you’d like to replicate, please use caution in assembly and no responsibility can be accepted if it all goes south.. I’ll add that these loads function in my OU but have not been proof house or pattern tested yet..

Earlier I’d found a published load of 21grms using 15 grains of H110 plus Fiocchi F616 primers. I’ve no access to 616 primers so substituted with what I had - Federals 209A (hottest, I know) primer and reduced powder by one grain.. Load was reduced to 20grms to get a decent crimp..

Thanks, do you know what speed they are doing?