Fast forward to UK population having been vaccinated, what do we think happens next?

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

The virus is not truly airborn. 

The vaccine is +80% or so effective. Whilst people can still catch and transmit the virus the viral load is significantly reduced so the transmission from those vaccinated will be a lot less than otherwise. Also less people will get the virus after vaccination so overall transmission rates will be significantly lower. 

All correct.  The number of times I have seen people saying there is no point in wearing masks as the virus is airborne, sub microscopic and goes straight through a filter/mask .......... words fail (wisely) at the point.  As you rightly say the virus itself in not airborne and it is carried in droplets and 'aerosolised' liquid particles - which can be filtered - albeit to various degrees.

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I don't claim to know anything about them but i heard they were in planes and now cruise liners. Even in vacuum cleaners now apparently.

Hi Efficiency Particulate Air filter - they are in different 'grades' but for medical use "HEPA filters are critical in the prevention of the spread of airborne bacterial and viral organisms and, therefore, infection. Typically, medical use HEPA filtration systems also incorporate high-energy ultra-violet light units or panels with anti-microbial coating to kill off the live bacteria and viruses trapped by the filter media.^{[citation needed]} Some of the best-rated HEPA units have an efficiency rating of 99.995%, which assures a very high level of protection against airborne disease transmission."

[AVB]

My car has got HEPA filters as well as bio weapon defence so I am safe then. 

[JohnfromUK]

12 hours ago, AVB said:

Let’s look at Israel. 40% of the population vaccinated but minimal reduction in infections/deaths so far.

Seems to depend (like so many things) on which account you read;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9179677/Israeli-healthcare-group-says-coronavirus-infections-plunged-vaccinated-60s.html

[Gordon R]

Does anyone have a view on the OP? I have answered a couple of times and thought about it even more, but the answer becomes less clear. 

People starve in the World and countries do not unite to eradicate this. Pol Pot killed millions - the World stood by.

The EU is in a mess - Germany going on its own - refusing to await approval for France's vaccine.

Who would pull the countries together for a massive planet wide vaccination scheme? The WHO would be the worst starting point. The UN?

I just don't see it.

[Raja Clavata]

I'd also considered the starvation aspect but people going hungry somewhere else in the world is a different kind of threat compared to billions of people acting as host for virus mutation which can come back and bite us all. I do not believe absolute closed borders is viable and it would only need one person to transfer the disease and bingo.

If it happens it might well come down to the likes of Gates, Musk, Besos and Co. but I agree it's far from clear and anything like that would drive the conspiracy nut-jobs crazy too.

[Mungler]

We have to live with this virus and we have to get back to work. I have been saying this all along.

You try and have a rationale debate about lifting the lockdown to get the economy running and everyone loses their **** and thinks you’re a vaccine denying anti masker who thinks this is all made up by bill gates.

As for masks - what a waste, what a master class of distraction for the dimwits. People thinking that a vanishing minority of people visiting their local Esso for Rizlas and Stella are responsible for half a million infections each week.

I have never cared if masks work or not but I’m happy enough to wear one if it stops the world endlessly going on about them and filling column inches when all the while we could be having a more grown up discussion about, oh I don’t know what, maybe the poverty that’s coming, the end of the nhs because we can’t afford it and so on.

The road freight industry has now stopped because of ill preparedness over Brexit and at the same time the port container crisis is the wake up call as to the effects of putting all your eggs in one basket - where even the ******* basket comes from china.

We are so screwed. People can’t get over the fact that for the vast majority of the working population this virus is nothing more than maybe 4 days off work.
 

We now have the BBC fed mind set that shutting the whole country, getting ‘free’ furlough money is all worthwhile for saving every life that can be saved over the age of 85. That is woke BS and how we became such pansies thinking everyone has the right to live to a hundred and ten I don’t know.

My prediction - if you haven’t filled your freezers and cupboards in the next 48 hours, then you’re going to have a problem and soon. 

 

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

We have to live with this virus and we have to get back to work. I have been saying this all along.

You try and have a rationale debate about lifting the lockdown to get the economy running and everyone loses their **** and thinks you’re a vaccine denying anti masker who thinks this is all made up by bill gates.

As for masks - what a waste, what a master class of distraction for the dimwits. People thinking that a vanishing minority of people visiting their local Esso for Rizlas and Stella are responsible for half a million infections each week.

I have never cared if masks work or not but I’m happy enough to wear one if it stops the world endlessly going on about them and filling column inches when all the while we could be having a more grown up discussion about, oh I don’t know what, maybe the poverty that’s coming, the end of the nhs because we can’t afford it and so on.

The road freight industry has now stopped because of ill preparedness over Brexit and at the same time the port container crisis is the wake up call as to the effects of putting all your eggs in one basket - where even the ******* basket comes from china.

We are so screwed. People can’t get over the fact that for the vast majority of the working population this virus is nothing more than maybe 4 days off work.
 

We now have the BBC fed mind set that shutting the whole country, getting ‘free’ furlough money is all worthwhile for saving every life that can be saved over the age of 85. That is woke BS and how we became such pansies thinking everyone has the right to live to a hundred and ten I don’t know.

My prediction - if you haven’t filled your freezers and cupboards in the next 48 hours, then you’re going to have a problem and soon. 

 

So basically what you are saying is most of the experts, doctors, governments etc worldwide have got it wrong and you have the answers on how to handle CV19 

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

My prediction - if you haven’t filled your freezers and cupboards in the next 48 hours, then you’re going to have a problem and soon. 

 

Why? Has something happened and I've missed it? 

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

We have to live with this virus and we have to get back to work. I have been saying this all along.

You try and have a rationale debate about lifting the lockdown to get the economy running and everyone loses their **** and thinks you’re a vaccine denying anti masker who thinks this is all made up by bill gates.

As for masks - what a waste, what a master class of distraction for the dimwits. People thinking that a vanishing minority of people visiting their local Esso for Rizlas and Stella are responsible for half a million infections each week.

I have never cared if masks work or not but I’m happy enough to wear one if it stops the world endlessly going on about them and filling column inches when all the while we could be having a more grown up discussion about, oh I don’t know what, maybe the poverty that’s coming, the end of the nhs because we can’t afford it and so on.

The road freight industry has now stopped because of ill preparedness over Brexit and at the same time the port container crisis is the wake up call as to the effects of putting all your eggs in one basket - where even the ******* basket comes from china.

We are so screwed. People can’t get over the fact that for the vast majority of the working population this virus is nothing more than maybe 4 days off work.
 

We now have the BBC fed mind set that shutting the whole country, getting ‘free’ furlough money is all worthwhile for saving every life that can be saved over the age of 85. That is woke BS and how we became such pansies thinking everyone has the right to live to a hundred and ten I don’t know.

My prediction - if you haven’t filled your freezers and cupboards in the next 48 hours, then you’re going to have a problem and soon. 

 

The key point is we either need a change of policy or we need to eradicate the virus across the planet. If we lockdown every time a new mutation that is either more transmissible or dangerous then we’re not just screwed - we’re finished.

I’m not disagreeing with you by the way.

[Mungler]

37 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Why? Has something happened and I've missed it? 

Yes. The freight industry has collapsed.

[Mungler]

42 minutes ago, ordnance said:

So basically what you are saying is most of the experts, doctors, governments etc worldwide have got it wrong and you have the answers on how to handle CV19 

Nope, did I say that? 

If I had to sum up my view it is this - we have apparently taken steps to protect the economy and to protect the most vulnerable (who happen to be over the age of 65 and in the main over the age of 85) and we have failed at both.

We are not alone in this, every country has done the same - is it right, has it been the best course of action? If only we could ask world leaders what they would have done a year ago differently based on what they know and can see now. 

All the answers will be in the next generations history texts - mind you they’ll be reading them off slates and under gas lights 😆

44 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

The key point is we either need a change of policy or we need to eradicate the virus across the planet. If we lockdown every time a new mutation that is either more transmissible or dangerous then we’re not just screwed - we’re finished.

I’m not disagreeing with you by the way.

So when I say we have to live this this virus, applying what you say, above, that’s actually the answer isn’t it?

[Gordon R]

I appreciate that what Mungler says is harsh, but it is the economic reality. Mention the country going down the pan and some start saying you don't care about people dying. It's just the same as the Black Lives Matter nutters who say if you don't agree, then you are the problem.

Once the bulk of the population has been vaccinated, will lockdown go? I suspect that it will continue, as will the Covid infections. There is no bottomless pit of money to the furlough scheme or prop up the mega cost of consultants. Telling the Government what to do - with ever changing advice - is a lucrative little earner for some. It suits some that the pandemic keeps on running, but someone has to pay for it.

How many pubs will go to the wall?

Supermarkets and on-line retailers are having booming sales, but high street shops? 

At some point, when the vaccines are done, there will still be millions who have not and will never be vaccinated. Businesses will have gone bust. There will be a time when the country has to bite the bullet and live with Covid. The economy says it should be sooner rather than later.

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

I appreciate that what Mungler says is harsh, but it is the economic reality. Mention the country going down the pan and some start saying you don't care about people dying. It's just the same as the Black Lives Matter nutters who say if you don't agree, then you are the problem.

Once the bulk of the population has been vaccinated, will lockdown go? I suspect that it will continue, as will the Covid infections. There is no bottomless pit of money to the furlough scheme or prop up the mega cost of consultants. Telling the Government what to do - with ever changing advice - is a lucrative little earner for some. It suits some that the pandemic keeps on running, but someone has to pay for it.

How many pubs will go to the wall?

Supermarkets and on-line retailers are having booming sales, but high street shops? 

At some point, when the vaccines are done, there will still be millions who have not and will never be vaccinated. Businesses will have gone bust. There will be a time when the country has to bite the bullet and live with Covid. The economy says it should be sooner rather than later.

100%

[Deker]

Got to agree with Mungler and Gordon R, we've been fed 'big' numbers from the government/media about the deaths when in fact they should have been giving percentages and breakdowns of demographics to give the real perspective.

Money will run out at some point and the fact is at that point the lockdown will have to be lifted ready or not.

[ordnance]

Quote

 

Nope, did I say that? 

If I had to sum up my view it is this - we have apparently taken steps to protect the economy and to protect the most vulnerable (who happen to be over the age of 65 and in the main over the age of 85) and we have failed at both.

 

But its not just over 80s etc, there are millions of people at extreme high risk if they catch CV19,  people that live with other people and families, they have children going to school, how do you suggest they are protected. 

Quote

It has been estimated that up to 30% of the population of the EU/EEA and the UK is either over 60 years old or has one of the underlying conditions associated with COVID-19 risk.

 

[ordnance]

Quote

I appreciate that what Mungler says is harsh, but it is the economic reality. Mention the country going down the pan and some start saying you don't care about people dying. It's just the same as the Black Lives Matter nutters who say if you don't agree, then you are the problem.

Do you think the government's don't know that, do you think they want to be paying out billions and have business closed.  If they did not take the measure's they are taking the hospitals would be overwhelmed more would be dying fact, public opinion would be shouting for government resignations. And the same ones saying the government was doing to much, lockdowns etc, would be shouting they didn't do enough. 

[Mungler]

22 minutes ago, ordnance said:

But its not just over 80s etc, there are millions of people at extreme high risk if they catch CV19,  people that live with other people and families, they have children going to school, how do you suggest they are protected. 

 

Let’s have a look at those stats again. We’re a year down the road and so we ought to be able to learn something from the stats.

What those stats tell me is that those at risk could be housed in the Ritz for less than the £4 trillion spent so far and everyone not at risk / under 45 back to normal.

Once we all work out there’s no magic solution where everyone gets what they want and it’s all sunshine and rainbows, you’re down to what makes the most sense and does the least damage. And I get it, if you’re over 80 and on you’re own, you’re less likely to give a monkeys that anyone under 20 is likely to struggle to get employed for at least the next decade or that there’s 7,000,000 people still on furlough - yep, 1 year later and there’s 7,000,000 people waiting.... waiting for what? Unless we get close to back to normal then that’s 7,000,000 without jobs to go back to.

The knock on is everything - reduced public services across the board, no NHS. 

.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Mungler

[AVB]

3 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Let’s have a look at those stats again. We’re a year down the road and so we ought to be able to learn something from the stats.

What those stats tell me is that those at risk could be housed in the Ritz for less than the £4 trillion spent so far and everyone not at risk / under 45 back to normal.

Once we all work out there’s no magic solution where everyone gets what they want and it’s all sunshine and rainbows, you’re down to what makes the most sense and does the least damage. And I get it, if you’re over 80 and on you’re own, you’re less likely to give a monkeys that anyone under 20 is likely to struggle to get employed for at least the next decade or that there’s 7,000,000 people still on furlough - yep, 1 year later and there’s 7,000,000 people waiting.... waiting for what? Unless we get close to back to normal then that’s 7,000,000 without jobs to go back to.

The knock on is everything - reduced public services across the board, no NHS. 

.

You are banging on closed door. There will still be people on here saying “but what about grannie” or “but what about the NHS” 

[Mungler]

1 minute ago, AVB said:

You are banging on closed door. There will still be people on here saying “but what about grannie” or “but what about the NHS” 

And... what is currently being done isn’t protecting the old and the vulnerable and we’re trashing the very economy which pays for the NHS we all so love.

And this should be the start of the campaign to teach basic economics to school kids.

[ordnance]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Let’s have a look at those stats again. We’re a year down the road and so we ought to be able to learn something from the stats.

What those stats tell me is that those at risk could be housed in the Ritz for less than the £4 trillion spent so far.

Once we all work out there’s no magic solution where everyone gets what they want and it’s all sunshine and rainbows, you’re down to what makes the most sense and does the least damage. And I get it, if you’re over 80 and on you’re own, you’re less likely to give a monkeys that anyone under 20 is likely to struggle to get employed for at least the next decade or that there’s 7,000,000 people still on furlough - yep, 1 year later and there’s 7,000,000 people waiting.... waiting for what? Unless we get close to back to normal then that’s 7,000,000 without jobs to go back to.

You are right there are no magic answers, most countries are struggling with how to deal with the pandemic. You could just have let it infect most of the country, few governments would survive if they went down that road. 

[AVB]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And... what is currently being done isn’t protecting the old and the vulnerable and we’re trashing the very economy which pays for the NHS we all so love.

And this should be the start of the campaign to teach basic economics to school kids.

Too true. My son is doing A level Economics. He will happily debate the merits of Keynesian Economics, Neoclassical Synthesis, Neo-Malthusian Marxism, Capitalism, Socialism etc but I wouldn’t trust him with my credit card  

 

[ordnance]

5 minutes ago, AVB said:

You are banging on closed door. There will still be people on here saying “but what about grannie” or “but what about the NHS” 

And are they not genuine concerns, so the government, the people that support the measures', the doctors, the medical experts, are all wrong and you are right OK 

[Mungler]

5 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You are right there are no magic answers, most countries are struggling with how to deal with the pandemic. You could just have let it infect most of the country, few governments would survive if they went down that road. 

Agreed.

There’s no answer / solution where someone somewhere doesn’t get the dog poo sandwich 

[AVB]

25 minutes ago, ordnance said:

And are they not genuine concerns, so the government, the people that support the measures', the doctors, the medical experts, are all wrong and you are right OK 

There is no downside to a doctor or scientist saying lockdown for ever. It makes their lives easier. They are still getting paid (until the money runs out of course). The rest of us have to deal with the consequences. The Government have got hung up on “following the science”, which is flawed for the reasons I state, and the media and a lot of the public have become convinced that people will live forever. 

[Raja Clavata]

3 hours ago, Mungler said:So when I say we have to live this this virus, applying what you say, above, that’s actually the answer isn’t it?

Yes, absolutely, I think you, me and others have been saying this for months.

The vaccine isn’t going to be a silver bullet and there needs to be a change in government policy. We’re a year in and the policy seems to be the same, it’s mental.