Scully Posted February 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2021 Just remembered, there was a bloke in here not too long ago selling or just bought, a Winchester 101, Model 12 or something of that era, which he said had been proofed for steel. I asked him if he’d mistaken Winchesters usual ( at that time ) barrel stamp ‘Winchester Superior proofed steel’ as meaning it was steel shot proofed, but he insisted it had been steel shot proofed, so that’s another example of an ordinary nitro proofed barrel capable of handling steel shot. Like I’ve said many times before, I used to put HP steel through my old 101’s, and a few other old guns, including a Winchester 1300 XTR and a Browning 2000, fixed choke at 3/4. 45 minutes ago, figgy said: Google proof houses America, see how many of their guns are steel proofed. Tom Roster a pioneer off steel shot loads and lethality in killing wildfowl used a Remington k32, was it proofed for steel? I think not. I hear the same cack spouted over and over again. If your happy to use steel shot in your gun do so if not don't, simples. You can also send any gun for steel shot proofing. But why go to the expense. The gun trade are going to use the excuse to sell new guns, who wouldn't. Also true that lots won't buy a non steel proofed gun. If I was buying new I wouldn't either, why would you? Much easier to sell on later if steel.shot proofed. This. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 24, 2021 Report Share Posted February 24, 2021 The reason we proof guns is to ensure they are safe with the ammunition they were designed to work with. I cannot find a statement on the Birmingham proof house website that reflects what gamebore are saying, it’s not in gamebore job description to proof guns that is by an act of Parliament the responsibility of the proof houses. So let’s see the same in writing from them (happy to be proven wrong if I have missed it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 9 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: The reason we proof guns is to ensure they are safe with the ammunition they were designed to work with. I cannot find a statement on the Birmingham proof house website that reflects what gamebore are saying, it’s not in gamebore job description to proof guns that is by an act of Parliament the responsibility of the proof houses. So let’s see the same in writing from them (happy to be proven wrong if I have missed it). As far as I’m aware the gun proof act specifies and determines the necessity and level of proof our guns are required to pass before being lawfully allowed for sale. There is no requirement for non steel proofed guns to undergo reproofing for steel shot prior to being lawfully sold. Ask yourself why. There is no requirement for RFD’s or private sellers to stipulate any nitro proofed only gun, is not suitable for steel shot prior to selling. Again, ask yourself why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 35 minutes ago, Scully said: As far as I’m aware the gun proof act specifies and determines the necessity and level of proof our guns are required to pass before being lawfully allowed for sale. There is no requirement for non steel proofed guns to undergo reproofing for steel shot prior to being lawfully sold. Ask yourself why. There is no requirement for RFD’s or private sellers to stipulate any nitro proofed only gun, is not suitable for steel shot prior to selling. Again, ask yourself why. no but their is a responsibility to ensure the gun is still in original proof before selling, proof act. There is no requirement for non steel proofed guns to undergo reproofing for steel shot prior to being lawfully sold. Ask yourself why. Possibly because the seller expects the buyer to only use lead shot in it as original proofed for. There is no requirement for RFD’s or private sellers to stipulate any nitro proofed only gun, is not suitable for steel shot prior to selling. Again, ask yourself why. possibly because it is buyer beware if they decided to use it outside its original proof criteria. It could take a court case due to a life changing accident to decide the rights and wrongs of using steel shot through a gun that was never designed or proofed for its use. in the USA such a case happened when a rifle chambered for .308winchester resulted in an accident whilst the shooter was using nato 7.62 ammunition, a common event as any rifle shooter would confirm. The expert witness from the rifle manufacture stated that the accident resulted from incorrect ammunition being used in the firearm. Result Millions of dollars in compensation paid out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: no but their is a responsibility to ensure the gun is still in original proof before selling, proof act. There is no requirement for non steel proofed guns to undergo reproofing for steel shot prior to being lawfully sold. Ask yourself why. Possibly because the seller expects the buyer to only use lead shot in it as original proofed for. There is no requirement for RFD’s or private sellers to stipulate any nitro proofed only gun, is not suitable for steel shot prior to selling. Again, ask yourself why. possibly because it is buyer beware if they decided to use it outside its original proof criteria. It could take a court case due to a life changing accident to decide the rights and wrongs of using steel shot through a gun that was never designed or proofed for its use. in the USA such a case happened when a rifle chambered for .308winchester resulted in an accident whilst the shooter was using nato 7.62 ammunition, a common event as any rifle shooter would confirm. The expert witness from the rifle manufacture stated that the accident resulted from incorrect ammunition being used in the firearm. Result Millions of dollars in compensation paid out. None of that is in line with current advice regarding steel shot through non steel shot proofed guns. Methinks I detect a bit of a reluctance on your part, to accept steel as a substitute for lead? 🤔 As far as I know, the GTA, along with cartridge manufacturers and proof house advice, is that steel shot CAN be used in none steel shot proofed guns if certain criteria is met, so I’m not sure where you get the idea RFD’s and individuals risk prosecution. The fact of the matter is, you CAN perfectly happily use your nitro proofed guns for steel shot. If it were a big no no, or any of those cartridge manufacturers , proof house etc, thought there was a risk of litigation, don’t you think the proof houses would be clamouring for calls for everyone to submit their guns for reproofing? After all, it would be a nice little earner for them! 🙂 What has happened since lead shot was banned for fowl, is that certain people who oppose the change, and those who don’t want to lose lead, have constructed an agenda to rubbish alternatives. Yes, there are guns which have been damaged through the use of steel shot, but it will be through a combination of circumstances rather than simply through the use of steel shot. Even now, if that steel shot leaves that wad before that steel leaves the barrel, even in a steel shot proofed gun, that barrel risks being scored. Steel shot proofing is no guarantee of no risk, just as nitro proofing is no guarantee of no risk, even with lead. The fact remains, a good condition nitro proofed gun is more than capable of handling steel shot, and in my experience that includes HP steel shot. As I’ve said, think it through logically. Saying all that, I don’t want to lose lead either, and will be stockpiling the stuff, but it’s going ( starting with live quarry shooting ) and rubbishing useable alternatives isn’t going to prevent it. To believe lead won’t be phased out or banned outright for ALL shooting eventually, is to be very naive. You can either use it through your nitro proofed gun, or use one of the other NTS alternatives, send it for reproof, or render it obsolete, which doesn’t mean you can keep it as a curio while other options are available. It would cost me well over a grand to have all my guns reproofed for steel, it ain’t gonna happen. There is no need. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krico woodcock Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 5 hours ago, Scully said: None of that is in line with current advice regarding steel shot through non steel shot proofed guns. Methinks I detect a bit of a reluctance on your part, to accept steel as a substitute for lead? 🤔 As far as I know, the GTA, along with cartridge manufacturers and proof house advice, is that steel shot CAN be used in none steel shot proofed guns if certain criteria is met, so I’m not sure where you get the idea RFD’s and individuals risk prosecution. The fact of the matter is, you CAN perfectly happily use your nitro proofed guns for steel shot. If it were a big no no, or any of those cartridge manufacturers , proof house etc, thought there was a risk of litigation, don’t you think the proof houses would be clamouring for calls for everyone to submit their guns for reproofing? After all, it would be a nice little earner for them! 🙂 What has happened since lead shot was banned for fowl, is that certain people who oppose the change, and those who don’t want to lose lead, have constructed an agenda to rubbish alternatives. Yes, there are guns which have been damaged through the use of steel shot, but it will be through a combination of circumstances rather than simply through the use of steel shot. Even now, if that steel shot leaves that wad before that steel leaves the barrel, even in a steel shot proofed gun, that barrel risks being scored. Steel shot proofing is no guarantee of no risk, just as nitro proofing is no guarantee of no risk, even with lead. The fact remains, a good condition nitro proofed gun is more than capable of handling steel shot, and in my experience that includes HP steel shot. As I’ve said, think it through logically. Saying all that, I don’t want to lose lead either, and will be stockpiling the stuff, but it’s going ( starting with live quarry shooting ) and rubbishing useable alternatives isn’t going to prevent it. To believe lead won’t be phased out or banned outright for ALL shooting eventually, is to be very naive. You can either use it through your nitro proofed gun, or use one of the other NTS alternatives, send it for reproof, or render it obsolete, which doesn’t mean you can keep it as a curio while other options are available. It would cost me well over a grand to have all my guns reproofed for steel, it ain’t gonna happen. There is no need. 🙂 Hi scully I'm from republic of ireland and non toxic shot is becoming mandatory in a couple of year's time. Which most shooting men will be reluctant to use. I never had to use steel or any other form of non toxic. Do you really see much difference in lead and steel for pheasant, duck etc out to say 45 yards? Alot of lads will be doing as you ,stock piling lead! But if steel is as good Is there any point?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 16 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said: Hi scully I'm from republic of ireland and non toxic shot is becoming mandatory in a couple of year's time. Which most shooting men will be reluctant to use. I never had to use steel or any other form of non toxic. Do you really see much difference in lead and steel for pheasant, duck etc out to say 45 yards? Alot of lads will be doing as you ,stock piling lead! But if steel is as good Is there any point?? Hi Krico. I have to confess I’m not very good at judging the range of objects flying, and if I try to visualise something flying as if it were on the ground ( at which I’m quite good at guessing the range of) by the time I’ve done it it’s too late, so I don’t bother. I’m pretty good however, at judging when things are actually in range, if that makes sense, so can only say that I find steel manages ok for the shooting I do. Shot size increases by two as a rule and I can’t say I’ve noticed anything I’d be disappointed with. I have shot many pigeons with steel... mostly GB’s Super steel 3’s and 4’s, as I have a couple of mates who work raptors so lead is a no no if the birds are going to them, but haven’t shot many pheasants at all with steel, and never on a driven day, despite our syndicate having no ban on plastic wads. I genuinely believe steel shot and especially their wads, will improve in leaps and bounds now that lead is going, but how this will effect its cost I have no idea. Any excuses to push up prices eh! Sorry I can’t be more helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Scully said: None of that is in line with current advice regarding steel shot through non steel shot proofed guns. Methinks I detect a bit of a reluctance on your part, to accept steel as a substitute for lead? 🤔 As far as I know, the GTA, along with cartridge manufacturers and proof house advice, is that steel shot CAN be used in none steel shot proofed guns if certain criteria is met, so I’m not sure where you get the idea RFD’s and individuals risk prosecution. The fact of the matter is, you CAN perfectly happily use your nitro proofed guns for steel shot. If it were a big no no, or any of those cartridge manufacturers , proof house etc, thought there was a risk of litigation, don’t you think the proof houses would be clamouring for calls for everyone to submit their guns for reproofing? After all, it would be a nice little earner for them! 🙂 What has happened since lead shot was banned for fowl, is that certain people who oppose the change, and those who don’t want to lose lead, have constructed an agenda to rubbish alternatives. Yes, there are guns which have been damaged through the use of steel shot, but it will be through a combination of circumstances rather than simply through the use of steel shot. Even now, if that steel shot leaves that wad before that steel leaves the barrel, even in a steel shot proofed gun, that barrel risks being scored. Steel shot proofing is no guarantee of no risk, just as nitro proofing is no guarantee of no risk, even with lead. The fact remains, a good condition nitro proofed gun is more than capable of handling steel shot, and in my experience that includes HP steel shot. As I’ve said, think it through logically. Saying all that, I don’t want to lose lead either, and will be stockpiling the stuff, but it’s going ( starting with live quarry shooting ) and rubbishing useable alternatives isn’t going to prevent it. To believe lead won’t be phased out or banned outright for ALL shooting eventually, is to be very naive. You can either use it through your nitro proofed gun, or use one of the other NTS alternatives, send it for reproof, or render it obsolete, which doesn’t mean you can keep it as a curio while other options are available. It would cost me well over a grand to have all my guns reproofed for steel, it ain’t gonna happen. There is no need. 🙂 Indeed and interesting debate. I am not against the use of steel shot as an alternative end of, but will probably wait until lead is legally banned for three reasons at this time, one that I shoot a lot over ground where the owners do not want non biodegradable wads to be used so that rules out cheap steel shot cartridges even if I wanted to little the countryside with plastic which I do not and hence reason two will not pay the extra price for cartridges loaded with biodegradable wads and steel shot. Third and main reasons I use only 28gauge these days. Going back to proof and gun safety we have been shooting lead through guns for centuries, steel shot and steel shot in the current new generation of biodegradable wads have only been in use for months or at best a few years and hence the long term risks are realativley unknown, how long is the shelf life of an Eley eco cartridge for example and one that has got damp or wet? if the risk is really zero with steel shot through any shotgun why is not stated so on the Birmingham proof house website and what is their scientific peer review evidence supporting that fact? I was talking to an RFD today about that and they said they would ask the proof house that question. We keep hearing so much about the science behind the need to ban lead but see no science that steel shot is safe in all the many types of shotguns in use. To me it is very early days for steel shot and even more so for biodegradable steel shot wads. Plus to date most who have been using it have done so in non biodegradable plastic wads and for wild fowling probably steel proofed 3 or 3 1/2” chambered guns. Yet their is still factual evidence of guns being damaged in circumstances where no damage would have occurred with lead shot. It potentially just takes one accident where someone suffers life changing injuries from using steel shoot in a gun not proofed for steel shot to have the house fall in on what is currently just an assumption with no scientific facts that; “The fact of the matter is, you CAN perfectly happily use your nitro proofed guns for steel shot. “ Edited February 25, 2021 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 wonder what shooting insurance providers will make of using guns unproven for steel should you need to claim the word void springs to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 11 minutes ago, clangerman said: wonder what shooting insurance providers will make of using guns unproven for steel should you need to claim the word void springs to mind Indeed big difference between an accident where one accidentally used the wrong cartridge too one where it was caused by regularly and knowingly repeatedly using a cartridge that the gun was not designed or proofed for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said: Indeed big difference between an accident where one accidentally used the wrong cartridge too one where it was caused by regularly and knowingly repeatedly using a cartridge that the gun was not designed or proofed for. i think in any type of claim if found to be using steel in a unproved gun they would try to claim you were acting unsafely be very hard to argue otherwise with no proof mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 minute ago, clangerman said: i think in any type of claim if found to be using steel in a unproved gun they would try to claim you were acting unsafely be very hard to argue otherwise with no proof mark Unless in the public domain and backed by peer reviewed science the proof house published information supporting you doing so. However so far they appear not to have done so, it all looks as far as I can confirm to have come from the shooting organisations or cartridge manufactures but they are not by an act of Parliament responsible for proofing a gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: Unless in the public domain and backed by peer reviewed science the proof house published information supporting you doing so. However so far they appear not to have done so, it all looks as far as I can confirm to have come from the shooting organisations or cartridge manufactures but they are not by an act of Parliament responsible for proofing a gun. I think you’re clutching at straws now in an attempt to prove a point, which is growing more vague as we go on. As for shooting cartridges through a gun it ‘wasn't designed for’, ( proof being an application and not a matter of design ) just what do you believe the design difference is between a steel proofed gun and a non steel proofed gun? The GTA, cartridge manufacturers and the proof houses have said that you can shoot steel through non steel proofed guns, but you still won’t accept it. The proof houses are responsible for proofing shotguns, as we all know, and trusted to do so to the extent that we use the products they have tested without question, but apparently not trusted when they give us the ok to use steel in nitro proofed guns. 🤷♂️ Why don’t all you doubters submit your guns for steel proofing, if you’re so hung up on a fleur de lys, then you can be happy in the knowledge that your nitro proofed gun is now capable of shooting steel ( and thereby in the process proving it already was 🙂 ) and you’re good to go? Or buy a gun proofed for steel? When you think it all through logically you can only come to one conclusion.....that you really CAN quite happily shoot steel through your non steel proofed gun. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krico woodcock Posted February 25, 2021 Report Share Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Scully said: Hi Krico. I have to confess I’m not very good at judging the range of objects flying, and if I try to visualise something flying as if it were on the ground ( at which I’m quite good at guessing the range of) by the time I’ve done it it’s too late, so I don’t bother. I’m pretty good however, at judging when things are actually in range, if that makes sense, so can only say that I find steel manages ok for the shooting I do. Shot size increases by two as a rule and I can’t say I’ve noticed anything I’d be disappointed with. I have shot many pigeons with steel... mostly GB’s Super steel 3’s and 4’s, as I have a couple of mates who work raptors so lead is a no no if the birds are going to them, but haven’t shot many pheasants at all with steel, and never on a driven day, despite our syndicate having no ban on plastic wads. I genuinely believe steel shot and especially their wads, will improve in leaps and bounds now that lead is going, but how this will effect its cost I have no idea. Any excuses to push up prices eh! Sorry I can’t be more helpful. Thanks scully I shot one and only box of Old steel cartridges at pigeons last year, they were at least 16 years old. Hull steel game 32g 4's. They surprised me how hard they hit pigeons. Since I read alot of negative about steel and it's poor performance. They were shot at around ranges between 30 to 45+ yards. As you say non toxic is coming if we like it or not. But it is a bitter pill to swallow as there is no real evidence to back the banning of lead for the reasons why they want to ban it. And the Powers to be ignore the evidence NOT to ban it. The whole thing is hopeless situation. It's going to be forced on us..so that's why I'm especially interested in learning more about steel. The other non tox alternatives are out of the question for obvious reasons.. none of my guns are steel proofed, but that's not going to stop me shooting steel through them, when I have to. I'm more concerned what they are going to try and ban next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 11 hours ago, Scully said: I think you’re clutching at straws now in an attempt to prove a point, which is growing more vague as we go on. As for shooting cartridges through a gun it ‘wasn't designed for’, ( proof being an application and not a matter of design ) just what do you believe the design difference is between a steel proofed gun and a non steel proofed gun? The GTA, cartridge manufacturers and the proof houses have said that you can shoot steel through non steel proofed guns, but you still won’t accept it. The proof houses are responsible for proofing shotguns, as we all know, and trusted to do so to the extent that we use the products they have tested without question, but apparently not trusted when they give us the ok to use steel in nitro proofed guns. 🤷♂️ Why don’t all you doubters submit your guns for steel proofing, if you’re so hung up on a fleur de lys, then you can be happy in the knowledge that your nitro proofed gun is now capable of shooting steel ( and thereby in the process proving it already was 🙂 ) and you’re good to go? Or buy a gun proofed for steel? When you think it all through logically you can only come to one conclusion.....that you really CAN quite happily shoot steel through your non steel proofed gun. Proof being confirmation that the design of the gun is fit for its intended designed purpose, it is a safety compliance. Their are hundreds of different types of steel and like most things in life we have had new grades of steel since the introduction of steel shot, then you have different bore coatings and steel hardening techniques again that are relatively modern. “The proof houses have said that you can shoot steel through non steel proofed guns, but you still won’t accept it.” Then they should publicly say so on their website and the science behind the decision, then yes I will accept it. As for accepting what the GTA or cartridge manufactures say then no I will not accept it, they are in the business of selling cartridges not the legal authority on proofing firearms. “When you think it all through logically you can only come to one conclusion.....that you really CAN quite happily shoot steel through your non steel proofed gun.” Yet going back to your very first post, the gun trade no longer want to buy shotguns that are not steel proofed QED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 5 hours ago, rbrowning2 said: Proof being confirmation that the design of the gun is fit for its intended designed purpose, it is a safety compliance. We're just going round in circles here, and again, you're simply clutching at straws to make a point which doesn't exist. There is no difference worth mentioning between the manufacturing process or design of a nitro proofed and one proved for steel, otherwise it wouldn't be possible to submit our old non steel proofed guns for steel proofing. Their are hundreds of different types of steel and like most things in life we have had new grades of steel since the introduction of steel shot, then you have different bore coatings and steel hardening techniques again that are relatively modern. As above. “The proof houses have said that you can shoot steel through non steel proofed guns, but you still won’t accept it.” Then they should publicly say so on their website and the science behind the decision, then yes I will accept it. If its so important to you then perhaps you should email the suggestion to them, and post their reply on here? As for accepting what the GTA or cartridge manufactures say then no I will not accept it, they are in the business of selling cartridges not the legal authority on proofing firearms. Is this a wind up? 😀 You won't accept the advice of the body which HAVE the legal authority to prove firearms either! 🤷♂️ “When you think it all through logically you can only come to one conclusion.....that you really CAN quite happily shoot steel through your non steel proofed gun.” Yes, even the proof house says so, within given criteria. Yet going back to your very first post, the gun trade no longer want to buy shotguns that are not steel proofed QED. And who is responsible for this? Those shooters like you whom won't accept steel can be used in non steel proofed guns, and so are refusing to buy perfectly sound secondhand non steel proofed guns! Ironically a twisted side effect created in part by the very organisations who want us to stop using lead shot! 😀 Why on earth would a RFD accept in PX something they are increasingly discovering no one wants to buy? I think we're done here; like I said, we're just going round and round. If you're not prepared to shoot steel through your non steel proofed gun then that's fine; buy a new one, or use one of the other alternatives, I really couldn't care less. Personally I'll be stocking up on lead for when the day comes, but still intend to use steel as and when it suits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 As for accepting what the GTA or cartridge manufactures say then no I will not accept it, they are in the business of selling cartridges not the legal authority on proofing firearms. Is this a wind up? 😀 You won't accept the advice of the body which HAVE the legal authority to prove firearms either! 🤷♂️ No I said I would accept it if the advice is in writing on the proof house website, do you not think it strange that they have not done so, it they are so confident in the facts why have they not put in writing on their website? very easy to deny liability when it’s not in writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said: As for accepting what the GTA or cartridge manufactures say then no I will not accept it, they are in the business of selling cartridges not the legal authority on proofing firearms. Is this a wind up? 😀 You won't accept the advice of the body which HAVE the legal authority to prove firearms either! 🤷♂️ No I said I would accept it if the advice is in writing on the proof house website, do you not think it strange that they have not done so, it they are so confident in the facts why have they not put in writing on their website? very easy to deny liability when it’s not in writing. No, I don’t think it’s strange at all, why would I? It’s not me who’s concerned about it. The GTA include in their advice on steel shot, the opinions of cartridge manufacturers and the proof house regarding steel shot; I seriously can’t think of any other establishments or authoritive bodies better placed or qualified to judge, but if you can, then contact them. If you think the proof house have something to hide, then perhaps you should contact them and ask for that advice in person. Just a thought. I look forward to you posting their reply; not that it will make an iota of difference to my shooting at all. But if it will satisfy you one way or the other, then go for it? 👍 Edited February 26, 2021 by Scully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 27, 2021 Report Share Posted February 27, 2021 On 26/02/2021 at 17:30, Scully said: No, I don’t think it’s strange at all, why would I? It’s not me who’s concerned about it. The GTA include in their advice on steel shot, the opinions of cartridge manufacturers and the proof house regarding steel shot; I seriously can’t think of any other establishments or authoritive bodies better placed or qualified to judge, but if you can, then contact them. If you think the proof house have something to hide, then perhaps you should contact them and ask for that advice in person. Just a thought. I look forward to you posting their reply; not that it will make an iota of difference to my shooting at all. But if it will satisfy you one way or the other, then go for it? 👍 Scully the GTA is nothing more than a club/voice for the gun trade. Anyway this from the BASC Facebook page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2021 54 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: Scully the GTA is nothing more than a club/voice for the gun trade. Anyway this from the BASC Facebook page. Really? Is that it? Facebook? Do you not think the GTA, cartridge manufacturers or perish the thought, the proof house, are possibly in a better position to give you the answers you seek? If indeed it is an answer you’re after. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2021 Report Share Posted February 28, 2021 10 hours ago, Scully said: Really? Is that it? Facebook? Do you not think the GTA, cartridge manufacturers or perish the thought, the proof house, are possibly in a better position to give you the answers you seek? If indeed it is an answer you’re after. 🤷♂️ Scully, did you not read what it said? “Birmingham proof house are currently conducting tests”, which may be exactly the reason why their nothing on their website in writing yet. However, yes contact has been made to the Birmingham proof house via an RFD who I do business with who like me would like a definative statement on the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted February 28, 2021 Report Share Posted February 28, 2021 On 24/02/2021 at 09:12, Scully said: Ok. Think of it logically. Are shotgun barrels proofed for steel made with different materials or in a different manner than those proofed for nitro? Do you know, cos I don’t. However, if they are made differently, then how come it is perfectly acceptable to submit your nitro proofed gun for steel shot proofing? If you can have your nitro proofed gun proofed for steel, isn’t it just logical that it is obviously capable of handling steel, or do nitro proofed guns fail during steel shot proofing? If you’re in doubt about using steel in your non steel shot proofed gun, then just shoot it through nothing tighter than half choke, which I believe is BASC’s recommendation for such. I’m not really interested in googling steel shot damages guns, I’ve been putting steel through my non steel shot proofed guns for years. Well said.Logical thought is difficult for many it seems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2021 1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said: Scully, did you not read what it said? “Birmingham proof house are currently conducting tests”, which may be exactly the reason why their nothing on their website in writing yet. However, yes contact has been made to the Birmingham proof house via an RFD who I do business with who like me would like a definative statement on the situation. Yes, for what it’s worth, but what difference do you really think it makes to me? As I’ve said, think of it logically , which is something you appear reluctant to do. Blinkered? The proof house have stated that you can use steel shot in your nitro proofed guns given certain criteria, ( I’m getting a real sense of deja vue here 🙂) and now it’s claimed they are belatedly conducting tests! What do you think will be the result? The proof house will call for people to submit all their guns for steel proofing? This would prove they already were, as I’ve already stated! They state all non steel proof guns should be submitted to have their chokes opened up? Amounts to the same thing really as they’ll insist on reproofing after that. Or they could state it’s ok to use steel given certain criteria are met, or they could state that all those non steel proofed guns are now obsolete unless one of the expensive alternatives are used? 🤷♂️ There is a K32 on GT, which is steel proofed. The K32 was made by Krieghoff from 1959 to the introduction of the K80 in 1980. Were guns as a matter of course steel proofed prior to 1980? Or has an ordinary nitro proofed gun been submitted for steel proofing? Who cares? Think it through. Meanwhile, I’m going bolting bunnies. I’ll be using HP steel in my steel proofed Benelli, through a 3/8ths choke which isn’t proofed for steel. A mate will be using HP steel ( as he did last time ) through his old non steel proofed OU Rizzini. I don’t know what it’s choked at, but it’s fixed. Another will be using lead through his steel proofed Beretta auto. Enjoy your Sunday. 🙂👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 28, 2021 Report Share Posted February 28, 2021 “What do you think will be the result? “ No crystal ball so unable to predict the result, however I do believe such a test by the proof house should be conducted as clearly from your original post the unknown is already devaluing shotguns that are not steel proofed. The practical evidence is as you have been saying that standard steel shot can be used in any “modern” shotgun but it would be good to have the evidence to support that from the authority on the subject the proof house. Every day is a Sunday when retired 😊and likewise enjoy your day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 28, 2021 Report Share Posted February 28, 2021 On 24/02/2021 at 09:12, Scully said: Ok. Think of it logically. Are shotgun barrels proofed for steel made with different materials or in a different manner than those proofed for nitro? Do you know, cos I don’t. However, if they are made differently, then how come it is perfectly acceptable to submit your nitro proofed gun for steel shot proofing? If you can have your nitro proofed gun proofed for steel, isn’t it just logical that it is obviously capable of handling steel, or do nitro proofed guns fail during steel shot proofing? If you’re in doubt about using steel in your non steel shot proofed gun, then just shoot it through nothing tighter than half choke, which I believe is BASC’s recommendation for such. I’m not really interested in googling steel shot damages guns, I’ve been putting steel through my non steel shot proofed guns for years. I'm not quite sure whether or not BASC are qualified to make this recommendation. Suffice to say in their information sheet for steel shot where they mention this they quote both the CIP and the UK proof houses - you pays your money and takes your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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