Hospital in Texas sacks staff who wouldn't take the jab

[udderlyoffroad]

3 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

The US system isn’t really that bad for the working class.  I like what I have.

Don't get me wrong; there is much to commend the US system, the problem is over here that the Church of England has been replaced by the NHS as the national religion, and questioning it is seen by many to be blasphemy.  Seemingly masks are the new hijabs too, but that's another thread.

Thus we can't even have a grown up debate about the failings of our system, without people citing the worst excesses of the US system - i.e. medical bankruptcy - as the *only* alternative.  Seemingly all those calling out blasphemy are completely blind to the fact that similar systems are in operation by our closer neighbours in Europe.

Watch the howls of protest as people inevitably respond with "muhhhh but the NHS is free" - not realising that likely  @NoBodyImportant's tax bill+ Insurance premium + $4k max excess < the average UK PAYE (taxed at source) employee annual tax bill (as a percentage).

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Don't get me wrong; there is much to commend the US system, the problem is over here that the Church of England has been replaced by the NHS as the national religion, and questioning it is seen by many to be blasphemy.  Seemingly masks are the new hijabs too, but that's another thread.

Thus we can't even have a grown up debate about the failings of our system, without people citing the worst excesses of the US system - i.e. medical bankruptcy - as the *only* alternative.  Seemingly all those calling out blasphemy are completely blind to the fact that similar systems are in operation by our closer neighbours in Europe.

Watch the howls of protest as people inevitably respond with "muhhhh but the NHS is free" - not realising that likely  @NoBodyImportant's tax bill+ Insurance premium + $4k max excess < the average UK PAYE (taxed at source) employee annual tax bill (as a percentage).

I agree

The NHS is great but a lot more accountability is needed

[Mice!]

6 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

The US system isn’t really that bad for the working class.  I like what I have.  My family pays $600 an month for 90/10 wife, child, and myself. Insurance pays 90% and I pay 10% until I hit my maximum of $4000 then insurance pays 100%.   Now before the Affordable Healthcare Act We paid $120 an month but that’s a different argument.  The insurance actually cost $1200 an month but my employer pays half as do 99% of companies.  The complaints come from those who don’t work and had to pay the full amount.  Disabled and elderly don’t pay anything.  But theirs is 80/20 with a max out of pocket of 7k a year.  But my parents pay about $200 a month for a supplement policy that pays their 20%.  Now I know this isn’t free but If I can get same day doctors appointments and usually see a specialist within a week.  I live in Charlotte NC and worked a lot in the Medical Triangle and half the people you meet are health tourists from Canada or from Europe.  I have talked to Canadians that come down because of having to wait over a year to see specialist.  Because of the Affordable Health Care Act insurance has to cover pre existing conditions so Canadians will fly down, buy a good 90/10 policy and go straight to surgeon.  Then they fly back to Canada with a bill for their max out of pocket. 

That's really interesting, I could imagine it causing a real problem if brought in here, simply because most don't have the extra money,  those not working couldn't pay and would probably make the whole thing a none starter

But I do like the idea of being able to cut out all the waiting involved when seeing a specialist. 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

That's really interesting, I could imagine it causing a real problem if brought in here, simply because most don't have the extra money,  those not working couldn't pay and would probably make the whole thing a none starter

You do realise variations on this is how the rest of Europe, operates right?  Those not working have a safety net in Europe as they do in the US.

The difficulty, if anything, comes from the cliff-edge between those who don't work, and those who do work but not in a job with health benefits.  Where it's actually beneficial to stay out of work...sound familiar?

[NoBodyImportant]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

You do realise variations on this is how the rest of Europe, operates right?  Those not working have a safety net in Europe as they do in the US.

The difficulty, if anything, comes from the cliff-edge between those who don't work, and those who do work but not in a job with health benefits.  Where it's actually beneficial to stay out of work...sound familiar?

Well the crazy thing is if you don’t work then you qualify for Medicaid which is 100% free.  So even if you don’t want to work you can still get free healthcare.  

[ordnance]

Quote

Watch the howls of protest as people inevitably respond with "muhhhh but the NHS is free" - not realising that likely  @NoBodyImportant's tax bill+ Insurance premium + $4k max excess < the average UK PAYE (taxed at source) employee annual tax bill (as a percentage).

Do you think Americans don't pay tax that goes to the health system, they pay twice, tax and health insurance. 

[ordnance]

Last January, Malcolm Bird took his 1-year-old daughter, Colette, to the local emergency room. His wife had accidentally cut the young girl's pinky finger while clipping her fingernails, and it had begun to bleed. They were nervous, first-time parents who wanted a doctor's opinion.

Colette turned out to be completely fine. A doctor ran her finger under the tap, stuck a Band-Aid on her pinky, and sent the family home.

A week later, something else showed up at home: a $629 hospital bill for the Band-Aid and its placement on Colette's finger.

[udderlyoffroad]

50 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Do you think Americans don't pay tax that goes to the health system, they pay twice, tax and health insurance. 

I don’t think that, and what’s your point?

As I stated, nearly a month ago,  overall, our US cousins pay less (both tax+insurance) for a better healthcare outcomes.

Not always of course.

Also, quoting a story wholesale without citing a source is, at best unhelpful. And I’m sure I could cite similar breathtaking displays of incompetence at UK A&Es. 

[ordnance]

1 minute ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I don’t think that, and what’s your point?

As I stated, nearly a month ago,  overall, our US cousins pay less (both tax+insurance) for a better healthcare outcomes.

Not always of course.

Also, quoting a story wholesale without citing a source is, at best unhelpful. And I’m sure I could cite similar breathtaking displays of incompetence at UK A&Es. 

It wasn't incompetence, that was the cost. 

case of the $629 Band-Aid — and what it reveals about ... - Vox

[12gauge82]

The NHS is broken. It needs serious reform. 

[Vince Green]

8 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Last January, Malcolm Bird took his 1-year-old daughter, Colette, to the local emergency room. His wife had accidentally cut the young girl's pinky finger while clipping her fingernails, and it had begun to bleed. They were nervous, first-time parents who wanted a doctor's opinion.

Colette turned out to be completely fine. A doctor ran her finger under the tap, stuck a Band-Aid on her pinky, and sent the family home.

A week later, something else showed up at home: a $629 hospital bill for the Band-Aid and its placement on Colette's finger.

Oh yes, I am not surprised in the slightest by this having lived in the US

three years ago my friend Steve in Aberdeen SC got a chest pain. He went to ER and had an ECG, bloods and a scan but they found nothing wrong and charged him $10,000 which he really couldn't afford and created a hardship paying it off.

A year after that he had the same pain but sat back in his chair and waited for it to pass. This time it didn't pass and his partner found him dead about 4pm in his chair. 

[NoBodyImportant]

To add some light, I (North Carolina) ended up in the hospital for appendicitis last week.  I went to the emergency room.  I walked straight in and was immediately taking back.  They took me into imaging and then sent in pain control to give me shots.  Then took blood work for the lab.  I did set there for about 30min to an hour for imaging and blood work to be read.  By then my pain was controllable so I got discharged.  All and all my bill is $65 for the hospital and $7 for the prescription.  But of that I won’t pay any because my wife’s company gives us $3000 a year to pay the copay.  So I’m zero out of pocket.  Without insurance the hospital was $675 and the prescription was $40ish.  

[ordnance]

9 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Oh yes, I am not surprised in the slightest by this having lived in the US

three years ago my friend Steve in Aberdeen SC got a chest pain. He went to ER and had an ECG, bloods and a scan but they found nothing wrong and charged him $10,000 which he really couldn't afford and created a hardship paying it off.

A year after that he had the same pain but sat back in his chair and waited for it to pass. This time it didn't pass and his partner found him dead about 4pm in his chair. 

No doubt the costs put people of going to hospital, and that costs lives.   Why taking an ambulance is so expensive in the United States

Quote

 

It’s an open secret among Americans that calling for an ambulance is a financial gamble.

According to a recent study, 71% of ambulance providers don’t take the patient’s insurance. That same study found that 79% of patients who took a ground ambulance could be on the hook for an average fee of $450 after their insurance paid out. By comparison, air ambulances can cost the average patient $21,700 after the insurance pays out.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by ordnance

[Vince Green]

On 18/08/2021 at 18:52, ordnance said:

No doubt the costs put people of going to hospital, and that costs lives.   Why taking an ambulance is so expensive in the United States

 

Oh yes, when I lived in US they used to tell you to always carry a credit card just in case. People have been left bleeding in the street because they had no money on them

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Oh yes, when I lived in US they used to tell you to always carry a credit card just in case. People have been left bleeding in the street because they had no money on them

That sounds like something that would happen in South America not the USA. 

[Vince Green]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

That sounds like something that would happen in South America not the USA. 

There is no public ambulance service in the US. It depends very much on where you live. Whether you are a resident etc Where you take ill

The Fire Dept may have a couple at the bigger Fire Stations but the rest are private and can vary greatly in terms of their level of integrity 

You can reasonably expect a bill for $500 if your insurance wont cover it, Some insurances have a ceiling amount and you have to pay anything over.

But you don't have to travel to America to experience this, it happens in France and Spain to my certain knowledge and Holland as well I believe.

People in my family think im a bit obsessed because I insist on full insurance when we travel to the States   

Edited August 27, 2021 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

Have a look at this

Think the E.R. Is Expensive? Look at How Much It Costs to Get There - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[12gauge82]

17 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Have a look at this

Think the E.R. Is Expensive? Look at How Much It Costs to Get There - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I bet it stops all the time wasters who have a day out because they've got a cold or a cut finger. 

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I bet it stops all the time wasters who have a day out because they've got a cold or a cut finger. 

Yes I'm sure it does, but it also stops a lot of people who really do need to get to hospital too

Edited August 28, 2021 by Vince Green

[12gauge82]

8 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Yes I'm sure it does, but it also stops a lot of people who really do need to get to hospital too

Thing is though, how many times have you called an ambulance? I bet if you added the tax up, you've already paid for an ambulance many times over, the majority of people who work most of their lives would probably receive far better health cover and for cheaper than they do now if we had a at least part privatised system. 

Everyone thinks the NHS is free, it's not, we pay for it through our taxes and pay for a fair few who won't work as well. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by 12gauge82

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Thing is though, how many times have you called an ambulance? I bet if you added the tax up, you've already paid for an ambulance many times over, the majority of people who work most of their lives would probably receive far better health cover and for cheaper than they do now if we had a at least part privatised system. 

Everyone thinks the NHS is free, it's not, we pay for it through our taxes and pay for a fair few who won't work as well. 

 

You would be paying the same tax NHS or not, do you think if the NHS was not here tomorrow taxes would go down. They pay taxes in America some that goes towards the health care system, so they end up paying tax and private insurance. America spends much more of its GDP on health care than the UK, but most still have to pay for their healthcare.

In 2019, annual premiums for health coverage for a family of four averaged $20,576.

[Vince Green]

32 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

You would be paying the same tax NHS or not, do you think if the NHS was not here tomorrow taxes would go down. They pay taxes in America some that goes towards the health care system, so they end up paying tax and private insurance. America spends much more of its GDP on health care than the UK, but most still have to pay for their healthcare.

In 2019, annual premiums for health coverage for a family of four averaged $20,576.

There are varying levels of cover and you can buy in at the level you can afford, or more often, the package your employer offers. The more you pay the more cover you get but its all capped.

Some people, probably in the region of 30% of the population, can't even afford the basic level.

It was one of the reasons "poor boys" traditionally joined the military. Education and medical care for you and your family, was a big plus  

[ordnance]

24 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

There are varying levels of cover and you can buy in at the level you can afford, or more often, the package your employer offers. The more you pay the more cover you get but its all capped.

Some people, probably in the region of 30% of the population, can't even afford the basic level.

It was one of the reasons "poor boys" traditionally joined the military. Education and medical care for you and your family, was a big plus  

I know some employers pay some health insurance, but if they are paying that its money that is not going in your wages, so you could look at it as another form of tax, prescription costs in America are also a lot Higher. The is a lot wrong with the NHS, but i would take it over the American system every time.

Quote

The average cost to have a baby in the US, without complications during delivery, is $10,808 — which can increase to $30,000 when factoring in care provided before and after pregnancy.

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

 

You would be paying the same tax NHS or not, do you think if the NHS was not here tomorrow taxes would go down. They pay taxes in America some that goes towards the health care system, so they end up paying tax and private insurance. America spends much more of its GDP on health care than the UK, but most still have to pay for their healthcare.

In 2019, annual premiums for health coverage for a family of four averaged $20,576.

The NHS costs a huge amount in tax, the money doesn't come from a magic tree, I don't believe for a second the American system is the best but there are good examples on the continent, basically if you have a work ethic and are prepared to actually go to work, paying privately is almost certainly going to work out better for you. The NHS at the moment is absolutely broken and not fit for purpose. 

[ordnance]

31 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

The NHS costs a huge amount in tax, the money doesn't come from a magic tree, I don't believe for a second the American system is the best but there are good examples on the continent, basically if you have a work ethic and are prepared to actually go to work, paying privately is almost certainly going to work out better for you. The NHS at the moment is absolutely broken and not fit for purpose. 

And you have the option in the UK to pay insurance and go private, the UK pays less taxpayers money into health care that a lot of countries. As for tax we would have similar tax rates NHS or not. 

Quote

For the UK, health spending equated to 9.6% of GDP, which was ranked as the second-lowest of the Group of Seven (G7), a group of the world's largest developed economies.

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by ordnance