HULL SUPERFAST

[Sweet11-87]

46 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

This may interest you

 

https://www.eleyhawkltd.com/news/eley-hawk-first-uk-shotgun-cartridge-manufacturer-successfully-homologate-all-their-ammunition

all other manufactures have yet to get Type Approval (Homologation)., so are breaking the law then.

mate why are you so hung up on this?. 

all this link explains is that eley are the first to  get approval on ALL its ammunition. Some companies export  like gamebore they export to the US under the brand name Kent and the US isnt a C.I.P member they use SAAMI so any of their kent range manufactured here and sold stateside dont need to Meet CIP they meet SAAMI which has diffrent paramiters i think theyre in fact allowed stuff thats a bit hotter.   i dont wish to explain the ins and outs of this as youre clearly not intrested in anything other than trying to catch me out.

so ill end on this.  if its for comercial sale in a CIP member state, it  requires CIP approval or its an offence.  ammunition manufactured outside of a CIP member state for sale in a CIP member state needs approval.  amunition  manufactured inside a CIP member state for export to a non member state  doesent need CIP aproval.

lets leave it here and agree to dissagree if we must as its getting a bit dogged down and were derailing the thread.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[8 shot]

15 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

could be a million and one things as to why theyre getting so expensive. covid, brexit, raw materials.

I'd hazard a guess we pay a considerable sum per/1000 for there sponsers to have free/cheap shells for a year. 

[rbrowning2]

7 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

mate why are you so hung up on this?. 

all this link explains is that eley are the first to  get approval on ALL its ammunition. Some companies export  like gamebore they export to the US under the brand name Kent and the US isnt a C.I.P member they use SAAMI so any of their kent range manufactured here and sold stateside dont need to Meet CIP they meet SAAMI which has diffrent paramiters i think theyre in fact allowed stuff thats a bit hotter.   i dont wish to explain the ins and outs of this as youre clearly not intrested in anything other than trying to catch me out.

so ill end on this.  if its for comercial sale in a CIP member state, it  requires CIP approval or its an offence.  ammunition manufactured outside of a CIP member state for use in a CIP member state needs approval.  amunition  manufactured inside a CIP member state for export to a non member state  doesent need CIP aproval.

lets leave it here and agree to dissagree if we must as its getting a bit dogged down and were derailing the thread.

Mate not trying to catch you out,  their are at least two ammunition U.K. manufactures who are not CIP approved and two cartridge manufactures, because for historical reasons CIP in the U.K. is not a legal requirement for now as the proof house for obvious commercial reasons would like it to be.

However most manufacture will choose to get CIP accredited to be able to put the CIP logo on their packaging, also it allows them to export to other CIP countries, which is probably a significant part of their business. 

 

[Sweet11-87]

5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Mate not trying to catch you out,  their are at least two ammunition U.K. manufactures who are not CIP approved and two cartridge manufactures, because for historical reasons CIP in the U.K. is not a legal requirement for now as the proof house for obvious commercial reasons would like it to be.

However most manufacture will choose to get CIP accredited to be able to put the CIP logo on their packaging, also it allows them to export to other CIP countries, which is probably a significant part of their business. 

 

go on then youve drawn me in.. who are they?

[rbrowning2]

34 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

go on then youve drawn me in.. who are they?

Ha ha was it not you who said , no i cant. do it yourself im not going to hammer an education into you

I’ll give you two who last time I looked yet to be CIP accredited.

https://www.hps-tr.com/en/308-win-new-hps-target-master-ammunition-sierra-175-grain-50-rnd

and

https://www.empirecartridges.com

one more of each to find lol

But any respectable manufacture will be ballistic testing either in house or sending a lot to the proof house to be tested, just as we can do as home loaders.

And make a good product, as they can focus on a smaller variance of type and batch runs, so not an issue for the end user.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Sweet11-87]

ah mate you do you., im done going back and forth

i can tell you now both of the 2 examples yo gave are doing 1 of 3 things.

1. selling  in house manufactured ammunition with no CIP (which i highly doubt)

2. having a larger shadow company with cip approval manufacture ammunition to their spec  (e.g just cartridges  "in house" who are just reboxed gamebore)

3. are actualy approved.

 

but one more time just for the sheer hell of it...

ITS AN OFFENCE TO SELL AMMUNITION WITHIN A CIP MEMBER STATE THAT HAS NOT COMPLIED WITH AND BEEN CIP APPROVED.

 

if you really want to prove me wrong and argue the toss. reload a batch of watever you like. sell them to a mate whos authorised to purchase whatever it is you make, keep the recipt and submit it to whatever force your sgc/fac is with. let is know how long it takes them to revoke the lot.

have a good day mate

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[Smokersmith]

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

Thanks for posting what does the wording say.? Picture quality is not clear on my smart device.

3 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

 

but one more time just for the sheer hell of it...

ITS AN OFFENCE TO SELL AMMUNITION WITHIN A CIP MEMBER STATE THAT HAS NOT COMPLIED WITH AND BEEN CIP APPROVED.

have a good day mate

every day is a good day, thanks, if you don’t believe me just ring the Birmingham proof house and ask them, if CIP is a legal requirement in the U.K. 

FAC section 1 ammunition has different legal manufacturing requirements due to the firearms act, that do not apply to section 2 ammunition. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by rbrowning2

[Sweet11-87]

31 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Thanks for posting what does the wording say.? Picture quality is not clear on my smart device.

 

it says theyre CIP accredited...

it also says on their facebook  page posted on the 26th aug 2019

"all our loads are tested to meet CIP standards using ISO9001 methodology. Our ballistics test equiptment is the same as installed in the Birmingham proof house. the small hole you can see in the case is for the pressure to be registered by the Piezo Transducter, most systems use a conformal transducter although that saves time becasue drilling of the case is not required the results you get arent as accurate."

then they have a little video you can go watch of how them and other companies  do MANDATORY  testing. its well worth a watch mate.  you can learn somthing new everyday

i found it earlier but didnt want to post it

but when smokersmith posted that picture im sorry i really couldnt resist mate.  no hard feelings bud were all here for the same thing

[rbrowning2]

9 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

it says theyre CIP accredited...

it also says on their facebook  page posted on the 26th aug 2019

"all our loads are tested to meet CIP standards using ISO9001 methodology. Our ballistics test equiptment is the same as installed in the Birmingham proof house. the small hole you can see in the case is for the pressure to be registered by the Piezo Transducter, most systems use a conformal transducter although that saves time becasue drilling of the case is not required the results you get arent as accurate."

then they have a little video you can go watch of how them and other companies  do MANDATORY  testing. its well worth a watch mate.  you can learn somthing new everyday

i found it earlier but didnt want to post it

but when smokersmith posted that picture im sorry i really couldnt resist mate.  no hard feelings bud were all here for the same thing

still would like the actual wording on the box.I would guess it states something like these cartridges are manufactured to CIP specifications.  Also you have yet to find that for the ammunition manufacture and cannot see the BPL mark.

“all our loads are tested to meet CIP standards using ISO9001 methodology.” Is not the same as obtaining CIP Manufacturing approval.

We can all get cartridges tested at the proof house you pay for the lot to be tested and the certificate of testing returned will states if the cartridges “conform to CIP”.    However it not legally necessary in the U.K. prior to selling them. It is in the other CIP member states, due to the history of the formation of CIP.

Please look at item 5 below and find the entries for the two business I listed, you will note this does not state that any manufacture must seek CIP approval, just what is required if they want to.

The Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House
Banbury Street, Birmingham, B5 5RH

Tel: 0121 643 3860
Fax: 0121 643 7872
Website: www.gunproof.com
E-mail:  info@gunproof.com

Obtaining CIP Manufacturing Approval

Obtaining CIP approval as a manufacturer is not as simple of a process as many often think. CIP Cartridge Control is a form of accreditation, (additional to ISO accreditation, which the manufacturer must have in place), developed by the CIP so that Member States can accept the import and sale of ammunition on the basis of approval being given to a manufacturer, either indigenous or from outside the CIP community. The ammunition approval mark which has to appear on the smallest packaging of approved ammunition is much like the proof mark on firearms, in that it is reciprocally accepted by all CIP Member States. 

 Therefore, the UK Proof Authority stipulates that any manufacturer seeking CIP approval must have, as a minimum, ISO 9001 accreditation, prior to any consideration of their application.

The stages of approval are as follows:-

 1) Sample testing & factory visit where systems of manufacture, pressure testing in accordance with CIP, record keeping, calibration documentation etc. are examined as well as the ISO 9001 Quality manual. (Travel expenses of BPL staff are to be reimbursed by the manufacturer.)

2) After this an offer will be made to proceed on the basis of an annual fee, which will be based on the volume of annual production and the number of calibres which are to be homologated (type- approved).

 3) If accepted, a contract will be produced for signature by both the BPL and the manufacturer, following which significant (see CIP regulations) ammunition samples will be sent by the manufacturer of each calibre/ gauge of ammunition they produce (normally the highest pressure in the range of ammunition produced in that calibre) to the BPL. This will be subject to dimensional, pressure, velocity and functional testing (in a range of arms appropriate to the ammunition). 

 The fee referred to in point (2) above covers all costs of the homologation process, which if successful will result in the issue by the BPL of a homologation report for each calibre/ gauge covering all variation of loads, etc. for that calibre /gauge. It will also cover the cost of the subsequent periodic testing of samples of ammunition of the homologated calibres/ gauges, the sourcing of which would be discussed on the factory visit.

 4) Additionally, the smallest packaging units for the ammunition will be subject for approval by the BPL for homologated calibres/ gauges. After which the manufacturer will be allowed to include the BPL ammunition approval mark (the CIP ammunition approval mark followed by the BPL mark.)

Additionally, the smallest packaging units for the ammunition will be subject for approval by the BPL for homologated calibres/ gauges. After which the manufacturer will be allowed to include the BPL ammunition approval mark (the CIP ammunition approval mark followed by the BPL mark.)

5) All successfully homologated ammunition will be posted on the CIP website (no technical information disclosed) so all interested parties can verify the calibres that a manufacturer is approved for.

 As with any manufacturer, submission for ammunition pressure/ velocity testing can happen at any time (details of the cost of ammunition testing can be supplied on request), before the approval process starts for the purposes of comparing your pressure/ velocity measurements with the BPL’s. Later, the annual fee assumes that the manufacturer may wish to submit samples from time to time in addition to those we require for the CIP process. The contract will state how many such tests are included in the annual fee.

 

 

[Centrepin]

19 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

 

If only I could find a local dealer who would order 28gram x 6s or 30gram x 5s I'd be made.

It's probably a personal or even psychological thing but I prefer 5s on crow and 6s on pigeon to ensure a clean kill. 

 

[wymberley]

6 hours ago, Centrepin said:

If only I could find a local dealer who would order 28gram x 6s or 30gram x 5s I'd be made.

It's probably a personal or even psychological thing but I prefer 5s on crow and 6s on pigeon to ensure a clean kill. 

 

Understand where you're coming from. The advantage would be a better filled pattern with only a small reduction in energy if you were to find something Continental in 6s and 7s which equate to our 5&1/2s and 6&1/2s.