Anyone?

[Konor]

16 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for the feedback and I have given it some thought.

I agree with you on the dangers of appeasement - and another viewpoint might be that the voluntary measures taking place in recent years in the UK to move away from lead shot and single use plastics for shotgun cartridges used in live quarry shooting are not only about doing the right thing for the environment (we have a proud history of conservation in the UK and want a sustainable future for live quarry shooting) but also about preparing for what might come. 

Some might say that this is not appeasement, its being pragmatic. But I accept there will be varying viewpoints on that and it will be a case of judging current events down the line with the advantage of hindsight.

On that note, we have had many years forewarning of what is happening in the EU - and the way things are shaping up, its not a matter of if, but when, restrictions on lead ammunition take force, despite the combined forces of every hunting organisation across Europe fighting against a ban. And lead bans happening all around Europe will impact in many ways on the continued use of lead ammunition in the UK. 

Brexit gave us a year's grace from what was happening on the lead ammo ban front in the EU until the UK government created similar legislation and processes taking place in the EU to ensure continued trade in chemicals - and that is why in 2021 we saw the launch of a lead ammunition review along the same lines as what was already happening in the EU - amongst hundreds of other reviews for other chemicals - in other words, no conspiracy against shooting, just a political/policy reality we have been caught up in as a sector using lead.

The academics and organisations seeking a lead ban were dismayed by the announcement of a lead ammunition review in 2021. They saw this as kicking the can down the road. They have wanted a full lead ban for many years regardless of the evidence and regardless of the consequences for shooting.

And that is where BASC in particular comes in. 

We have successfully pushed back on lead ban proposals here in the UK for decades. 

Most recently, last year's proposals to ban the outdoor use of lead airgun pellets have been dropped. And it looks like proposals to ban the outdoor recreational use of lead rifle ammo will be dropped. There is still work to do on the outdoor recreational use of lead shot. And lots more in-between - it is a complex issue.
 
Latest update here: https://basc.org.uk/basc-response-to-hse-lead-ammunition-consultation/

Also consider that thanks to devolution the administrations in Wales, Scotland and NI have the power to put in place lead bans as they wish and not await the HSE lead ammunition review outcome.

As regards shooting clubs and syndicates affiliated to BASC or considering doing so, it is a fantastic package as outlined in a recent article as follows:

https://basc.org.uk/should-you-join-our-savvy-basc-syndicate-members/

This is the level of insightful contribution that puts into context the information documents released by BASC. As such it is very welcome as to a certain extent it explains the reasoning behind the proposed changes and the context in which decisions are made thus providing a bit more clarity and as a consequence decreases the likelihood of circular arguments and the problems that accompany them. 

Edited January 24 by Konor

[Conor O'Gorman]

12 hours ago, Fil said:

Conor, I admire your full and comprehensive reply.  A lot of what you said is what I have heard already from other organisations (such as the GTA) But I didn't want to accept or believe it. And I have to say that I am with you on that. Great post. 

Thank you.

 

12 hours ago, Fil said:

But it doesn't mean that I want to give up my Eley Impax 28g 6's or think that I am going to bow down to the EU and their lead bans when I voted for brexit hoping that our firearms laws were going away from the EU for UK firearms laws dammit!!! LOL 

I know what you mean!

17 minutes ago, Konor said:

This is the level of insightful contribution that puts into context the information documents released by BASC. As such it is very welcome as to a certain extent it explains the reasoning behind the proposed changes and the context in which decisions are made thus providing a bit more clarity and as a consequence decreases the likelihood of circular arguments and the problems that accompany them. 

There is a lot to disentangle on it all so glad this has helped. There will be a lot more comms this year I think - breaking it down into segments.

[superfastpigeon]

On 22/01/2024 at 10:54, Poor Shot said:

2. The 2 3/4" standard rated steel as mentioned above are nowhere near as effective as the lead alternative. I've had quite a few birds hit fairly hard (puff of feathers and all that on impact) with a steel cartridge only for it to continue to fly on and be a pain to retrieve as its still a fairly strong runner.

This is the same for me. I too bought a slab of non toxic for the season (Gamebore #4, 32g ‘standard’ steel) and was dumbfounded by the number of pricked birds, runners and ones that just flew on after a puff of feathers. I tried the carts on pigeons and again, less than impressed.

Maybe the ‘superior’ or ‘HP’ stuff is better but I’m in no rush to spend my cash to try it  

[London Best]

Just before he started his shoot day briefing this morning I nudged the ‘keeper and suggested he told everyone they needed to be using steel cartridges. 
What he actually said was, “I hope you are all using non-toxic shot and fibre or biodegradable wads.” 
To a man, even though everyone was using lead everyone nodded sagely and said, “yes”, and then carried on regardless.

[rbrowning2]

23 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for the feedback and I have given it some thought.

Also consider that thanks to devolution the administrations in Wales, Scotland and NI have the power to put in place lead bans as they wish and not await the HSE lead ammunition review outcome.

So if the administration in wales, scotland and NI have the power to put in place a lead ban as they see fit, one must assume they also have the power to not put in place a lead ban despite the EU and therefore it begs the question why does England not also?  

Far more going on in the world and the U.K. for the government to worry about than lead, WW3 anybody ?  then even if they decided tomorrow to ban lead their is massive supply issues to resolve, are the shooting organisation looking to buy Port Talbort steel works ?

 

 

[scolopax]

I suppose I am running down my meagre stock of lead, probably shot 120 lead and 30 steel at game this season.  Could not tell the difference. Pheasants and partridge were killed with both, missed with both and some (a few) were pricked with both.  My last purchase was a slab of steel ‘game loads’ and 100 Gamebore 35 gram steel 3’s ‘extreme game type’ loads which I will reserve for wildfowling. Both had biodegradable wads. My game shooting is flattish farmland and nothing extreme about it. 
 

So I guess next season I will be shooting steel for all my shotgun shooting, bar some premium non toxic (hevi shot and ITM)  for wildfowling. 

[superfastpigeon]

7 hours ago, scolopax said:

I suppose I am running down my meagre stock of lead, probably shot 120 lead and 30 steel at game this season.  Could not tell the difference. Pheasants and partridge were killed with both, missed with both and some (a few) were pricked with both.  My last purchase was a slab of steel ‘game loads’ and 100 Gamebore 35 gram steel 3’s ‘extreme game type’ loads which I will reserve for wildfowling. Both had biodegradable wads. My game shooting is flattish farmland and nothing extreme about it. 
 

So I guess next season I will be shooting steel for all my shotgun shooting, bar some premium non toxic (hevi shot and ITM)  for wildfowling. 

What were the carts you used on the Pheasant and Partridge out of curiosity?

[Conor O'Gorman]

13 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

So if the administration in wales, scotland and NI have the power to put in place a lead ban as they see fit, one must assume they also have the power to not put in place a lead ban despite the EU and therefore it begs the question why does England not also?  

Far more going on in the world and the U.K. for the government to worry about than lead, WW3 anybody ?  then even if they decided tomorrow to ban lead their is massive supply issues to resolve, are the shooting organisation looking to buy Port Talbort steel works ?

 

 

The regulation of lead ammunition in England is determined in Westminster. There is an added complexity also in that EU regulations around lead and other substances continue to apply in NI due to the Brexit deal, albeit no functioning government there currently. As things stand, no legislative proposals for any part of the UK and regardless of the HSE lead ammunition review restriction proposals could arise at any time anywhere. For example, in 2020 BASC helped defeat a Labour-backed proposal to ban lead shot for live quarry shooting that would have taken effect in England on 1 January 2023. The vehicle for this was an amendment to the Environment Bill and after a debate in the House of Commons this was voted down. So, constant vigilance needed and continued briefings to MPs and to elected members of the devolved administrations to build understanding on the complexities of this topic  - including on the progress being made on the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics in shotgun cartridges used for live quarry shooting.

Edited January 25 by Conor O'Gorman

[rbrowning2]

9 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The regulation of lead ammunition in England is determined in Westminster. There is an added complexity also in that EU regulations around lead and other substances continue to apply in NI due to the Brexit deal, albeit no functioning government there currently. As things stand, no legislative proposals for any part of the UK and regardless of the HSE lead ammunition review restriction proposals could arise at any time anywhere. For example, in 2020 BASC helped defeat a Labour-backed proposal to ban lead shot for live quarry shooting that would have taken effect in England on 1 January 2023. The vehicle for this was an amendment to the Environment Bill and after a debate in the House of Commons this was voted down. So, constant vigilance needed and continued briefings to MPs and to elected members of the devolved administrations to build understanding on the complexities of this topic  - including on the progress being made on the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics in shotgun cartridges used for live quarry shooting.

Why are you including or linking a transition away from single use plastic when it is outside the HSE remit regarding the future of lead.

No other country has linked the two and continue to use single use plastic, i.e. you are making it look like non toxic shot can only be viable with biodegradable plastic.

I appreciate the issues with going forward with single use plastic but there is no policy to ban its use on the table.

When will you publish the results of your recent survey.

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Why are you including or linking a transition away from single use plastic when it is outside the HSE remit regarding the future of lead.

No other country has linked the two and continue to use single use plastic, i.e. you are making it look like non toxic shot can only be viable with biodegradable plastic.

I appreciate the issues with going forward with single use plastic but there is no policy to ban its use on the table.

When will you publish the results of your recent survey.

For several years there have been new rules across the UK banning the use of single-use plastics. This will continue, and shooting may be caught up in that at some point. In Denmark the link was made by government in 2018:

https://en.fvm.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/ENGLISH_FVM.DK/Regeringens_plastikhandlingsplan_UK.pdf

Research by hunters has followed:

https://www.jaegerforbundet.dk/media/18285/dk-study-plastic-wads.pdf

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202105.0218/v1/download

Products have followed, for example see this article from 2021 in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/25/green-shoots-spanish-firm-tackles-plastic-waste-from-shotgun-cartridges

also see Field and Stream, with refs to other products and several states making the connection as they did in Denmark.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/hunting/plastic-shotgun-wads-eliminated/

I don't know when we will publish the results of the BASC survey but when it happens I will post an update on the forum about that.

[rbrowning2]

35 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

For several years there have been new rules across the UK banning the use of single-use plastics. This will continue, and shooting may be caught up in that at some point. In Denmark the link was made by government in 2018:

https://en.fvm.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/ENGLISH_FVM.DK/Regeringens_plastikhandlingsplan_UK.pdf

Research by hunters has followed:

https://www.jaegerforbundet.dk/media/18285/dk-study-plastic-wads.pdf

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202105.0218/v1/download

Products have followed, for example see this article from 2021 in The Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/25/green-shoots-spanish-firm-tackles-plastic-waste-from-shotgun-cartridges

also see Field and Stream, with refs to other products and several states making the connection as they did in Denmark.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/hunting/plastic-shotgun-wads-eliminated/

I don't know when we will publish the results of the BASC survey but when it happens I will post an update on the forum about that.

I did say

I appreciate the issues with going forward with single use plastic but there is no policy to ban its use on the table. 

So you have not actually answered the question just published articles that single use plastic is bad.

wildfowlers have been using single use plastic wads with non toxic shot for many years in the U.K as has the rest of the world using steel shot.

So with no legislative pressure to not use single use plastic why initially complicate the situation for component manufacture by pushing both non toxic shot and biodegradable wads at the same time? Which has also unnecessarily driven up the cost of cartridges.

Surly before creating a race to develop the different biodegradable wads that we now have,  it would have been best to have an agreed industry standard that the wads should meet to be classified as biodegradable.

As certainly they all do perform different with regards to how long and how they degrade. 

 

Edited January 25 by rbrowning2

[stockybasher]

56 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

wildfowlers have been using single use plastic wads with non toxic shot for many years in the U.K as has the rest of the world using steel shot.

 

 

Edited January 25 by stockybasher
Misread, sorry !

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

I did say

I appreciate the issues with going forward with single use plastic but there is no policy to ban its use on the table. 

So you have not actually answered the question just published articles that single use plastic is bad.

wildfowlers have been using single use plastic wads with non toxic shot for many years in the U.K as has the rest of the world using steel shot.

So with no legislative pressure to not use single use plastic why initially complicate the situation for component manufacture by pushing both non toxic shot and biodegradable wads at the same time? Which has also unnecessarily driven up the cost of cartridges.

Surly before creating a race to develop the different biodegradable wads that we now have,  it would have been best to have an agreed industry standard that the wads should meet to be classified as biodegradable.

As certainly they all do perform different with regards to how long and how they degrade. 

 

Thanks - I think I was namely addressing your point that no other country has linked the two and continue to use single use plastic; and setting the wider scene - this is a public forum so when answering your questions I also consider it from the perspective of others with different levels of knowledge on policy developments reading the answer.

There is no specific legislative threat to single use plastics or lead shot currently, but things can change quickly, and the voluntary transition is I think as much as doing the right thing, moving with the times and preparing for the future. 

I understand your point on there being a stepwise approach, ie. lead shot first, non-plastic wads later.  There are industry standards on what qualifies as biodegradable, but I think what you mean is that there should be standards for how long wads degrade in the open countryside - some wads take longer than others in field conditions. 

This is all of course an ongoing topic of discussion within the firearm and ammunition industry, some very interesting articles in Gun Trade News over last 6 months, and clearly there has been much innovation already and that continues, and so far we have avoided the cliff edge of ban proposals taking place at short notice. 

[rbrowning2]

25 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks - I think I was namely addressing your point that no other country has linked the two and continue to use single use plastic; and setting the wider scene - this is a public forum so when answering your questions I also consider it from the perspective of others with different levels of knowledge on policy developments reading the answer.

There is no specific legislative threat to single use plastics or lead shot currently, but things can change quickly, and the voluntary transition is I think as much as doing the right thing, moving with the times and preparing for the future. 

I understand your point on there being a stepwise approach, ie. lead shot first, non-plastic wads later.  There are industry standards on what qualifies as biodegradable, but I think what you mean is that there should be standards for how long wads degrade in the open countryside - some wads take longer than others in field conditions. 

This is all of course an ongoing topic of discussion within the firearm and ammunition industry, some very interesting articles in Gun Trade News over last 6 months, and clearly there has been much innovation already and that continues, and so far we have avoided the cliff edge of ban proposals taking place at short notice. 

Thank you for the reply, wad pollution is as important for the many of us who must use fibre wads as is the shot pollution.

 

 

 

[scolopax]

16 hours ago, superfastpigeon said:

What were the carts you used on the Pheasant and Partridge out of curiosity?

Hull Steel Game, 32 gram size 5.   And Gamebore Black Gold 32 gram 3/4 shot (each shell had 2 shots sizes mixed), which are also my main duck load when wildfowling. 

[Poor Shot]

8 hours ago, scolopax said:

Hull Steel Game, 32 gram size 5.   And Gamebore Black Gold 32 gram 3/4 shot (each shell had 2 shots sizes mixed), which are also my main duck load when wildfowling. 

That's completely at odds with my experience of the Gamebore Black Gold Dark Storm Steel 4's. 

I use a 36g HP 3's on the foreshore which seems to do the job just about. If I could get a HP 3 in 36g with a biowad for a reasonable cost I would use them for driven game shooting also. 

[scolopax]

12 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

That's completely at odds with my experience of the Gamebore Black Gold Dark Storm Steel 4's. 

I use a 36g HP 3's on the foreshore which seems to do the job just about. If I could get a HP 3 in 36g with a biowad for a reasonable cost I would use them for driven game shooting also. 

These are not Dark Storm.  They are straight Black Gold with plaswads and a mixed steel 3 and 4 shot.  Where I bought them told me they were loaded for the Danish market. Had them for quite some time now, although running low.