Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 11 hours ago, Windswept said: I don't drive that much although you seem to have missed my point. Many people don't listen to podcast, if you want to get your point across then a transcript is helpful, if you can't provide one then some platforms auto generate one so worth looking at. Thanks, we can ask the producers on adding a plug in. It would be their decision obviously. However you can download the software to do so yourself - search "turn podcast into transcript". There are updates on the voluntary transition in form of articles in the sporting press - many online. If there is a specific aspect of the voluntary transition you are interested in let me know and I can point you to an article or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 15 minutes ago, Old farrier said: can’t listen to any podcasts I’m afraid Fair enough, its just another means of communication. At least you did take the time to look at the 2023 HSE background document and hope that helped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Quote I have covered your query earlier in this thread. Sorry, Conor O'Gorman - you didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windswept Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Terry 2016, you certainly seem keen to post about the danger of lead pipes and as you say they have been banned since the 1970's. Those that are left are invariably on the waste side of the water, i.e.used to take waste water out of the building. The issue here is about the use of the best material to kill birds in the air. There's still plenty of lead supply pipes in use. Where I used to live on the edge of a large city all the water company pipes that went down the roads to feed houses were still lead. Most houses have replaced the feed from the road to the house with plastic but I can't see that helping much. Many of the lead pipes get disturbed by road works, traffic etc so I can easily see lead getting into drinking water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windswept Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 18 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Thanks, we can ask the producers on adding a plug in. It would be their decision obviously. However you can download the software to do so yourself - search "turn podcast into transcript". There are updates on the voluntary transition in form of articles in the sporting press - many online. If there is a specific aspect of the voluntary transition you are interested in let me know and I can point you to an article or two. Thanks. I am interested in birds picking up lead shot as grit. I've kept free ranging poultry and have had concerns about them picking up lead from my pest control activities. However, after several years observing then they mainly seem to pick up grit from the grit I supply with their food, so I wonder how real the threat is to wild birds. I.e. could it be reduced if clean grit is supplied? If there is a genuine problem then does that not mean areas where large amounts of game are shot need to also decontaminate their land? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 15 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Sorry, Conor O'Gorman - you didn't. Here it is again then... 14 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Any free ranging chicks of the likes of Galliformes and Anatidae that eat even a single piece of lead shot will die whether directly or be predated on due to sub-lethal effects impacting on their survival. A wider point - there is background lead in every food and these levels are tested against agreed industry thresholds. Lead shot game has been found to exceed those thresholds. Hence this FSA advice: https://www.food.gov.uk/safety-hygiene/lead-shot-game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Please stop making personal remarks about me. I hope you will listen to the podcast with is the point of the OP. Accountability is an inconvenience in politics but I’m sure you will agree a necessity. The Information you are supplying is not free from bias and is better seen in a context. That that is an inconvenience is I accept not to your liking . 46 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Any free ranging chicks of the likes of Galliformes and Anatidae that eat even a single piece of lead shot will die whether directly or be predated on due to sub-lethal effects impacting on their survival. Do you have a link to the data supporting this statement. I would have expected that if the deposition of lead is so great ie the. “ minefields for the poor wee partridge chicks “that you have already referred to that in light of the realisation that only one piece of lead shot will bring about their demise that there would be no pheasants or partridges surviving. Surely if you believe the statement you have just made there is no justification for a voluntary lead ban that you are promoting. Surely only an immediate lead ban is sufficient to protect those “poor wee chicks “ so that we get the opportunity to shoot them. You do realise that your failure to call for an immediate ban is jeopardising the livelihood of commercial shoots that are relying on there being hundreds of thousands of birds available to provide their income. Are BASC willing to compensate all those shoots for the loss of revenue due to these single bits of shot when as “the voice of shooting “they should have been screaming out the necessity for a. total lead ban to protect the interests of those shooters ,sorry ,suppliers of shooting. Edited April 23 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 there were tests years ago where the fed ducks etc with lead pellets in their food to see how it affected the birds it failed i wish i knew how to find it online to prove its total rubbish also there were tests on the mud flats to see how lead and a few non so called toxic shot reacted in tidal water the lead sunk deeper than the birds would feed than any non toxic shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 30 minutes ago, Konor said: 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Please stop making personal remarks about me. I hope you will listen to the podcast with is the point of the OP. Accountability is an inconvenience in politics but I’m sure you will agree a necessity. The Information you are supplying is not free from bias and is better seen in a context. That that is an inconvenience is I accept not to your liking . Ok, you are clearly not going to stop with the personal remarks. Therefore I am not going to engage any further with you on this thread. The offer of a phone call remains open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Ok, you are clearly not going to stop with the personal remarks. Therefore I am not going to engage any further with you on this thread. The offer of a phone call remains open. Predictable and yet again a demonstration of an inability to respond to concerns regarding the approach BASC is taking to protect the interests of shooters. Once the ranks of grass shooters are thinned out and recruitment to shooting sports decimated by the agreement that it is so harmful to the environment how long do you think excessive commercial shooting will last ? Another question for you to ignore Conor. By the way Conor you have failed to engage ,as you call it ,full stop. When the questions are an inconvenience to the agenda you are pushing you scuttle off. It’s a PR nightmare for you. You have to convince occasional shooters that it is in their best interests to use an arguably inferior ammunition when their use of it probably has no significant environmental impact and is not designed to be used in the majority of their guns and at the same time defend the interests of commercial shoots and their income yet also convince them to move away from lead but as far as I can see your success in the latter can be measured in single figure percentage points. I don’t feel sorry for you and your predicament ,I think there is an element of “only following orders” but I have no sympathy for that. Edited April 23 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, Windswept said: Thanks. I am interested in birds picking up lead shot as grit. I've kept free ranging poultry and have had concerns about them picking up lead from my pest control activities. However, after several years observing then they mainly seem to pick up grit from the grit I supply with their food, so I wonder how real the threat is to wild birds. I.e. could it be reduced if clean grit is supplied? If there is a genuine problem then does that not mean areas where large amounts of game are shot need to also decontaminate their land? Thanks, yes supplying grit stations could be an effective risk reduction measure in your situation. There are masses of studies showing that birds pick up lead shot as grit and the impacts. A good starting point is the GWCT website here: https://www.gwct.org.uk/advisory/lead-ammunition/effects-of-lead-on-wildlife-and-wildfowl/ As for game shooting the practical solution is to move away from lead shot to reduce the availability of fresh shot - which more and more shoots are looking towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 1 minute ago, Konor said: Predictable and yet again a demonstration of an inability to respond to concerns regarding the approach BASC is taking to protect the interests of shooters. Once the ranks of grass shooters are thinned out and recruitment to shooting sports decimated by the agreement that it is so harmful to the environment how long do you think excessive commercial shooting will last ? Another question for you to ignore Conor. When that day comes Conor all the organisations responsible especially “the voice of shooting” will regret covering their ears and ignoring those who predicted the demise of grass roots shooting. Of course there wii be no accountability and countless excuses to deflect attention from those responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: - which more and more shoots are looking towards. Figures to substantiate. ?? I was under the impression that there was a 90% plus non compliance. Has BASCs promotion of non lead shot been responsible for a massive turn around in the take up of non toxic shot use that I was unaware of ? Surely you should be publicising the figures to celebrate your achievement and encourage more compliance if that’s even possible. Or are they just looking but not buying ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Fair enough, its just another means of communication. At least you did take the time to look at the 2023 HSE background document and hope that helped. No help at all I’m afraid 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Quote Here it is again then... Conor O'Gorman - I assume that you can read, so you answer is deliberately wrong. I asked how you can ensure that a bird shot with steel, had not previously ingested lead shot and therefore claimed to be lead free. Your track record of avoiding a straight answer is well established. That isn't a personal attack, but merely a fact. I will not respond to any of your posts on this thread. i feel embarrassed for you. Please don't offer one of your famous "phone calls". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Konor said: 40 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: The offer of a phone call remains open. The offer to answer the questions raised on this and the last thread remains open. Edited April 23 by Konor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konor Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Conor I understand your choice/need to portray me as a belligerent BASC basher as it conveniently permits you to abstain from answering the questions raised and the points put forward. This failure to confront those issues hints at a lack of robustness in the path BASC has chosen to “defend” shooting. I would contend that that “defence “will prove to be to the detriment of grass roots shooters. Private phone calls will contribute nothing and are merely used to wilfully mislead those reading the forum that the problem lies in getting people to understand rather than the approach you are taking is wrong. You have a political objective to achieve those that find fault in your reasoning and justification are an obstacle to achieving that. The emotive language you use to convince us is more fitting on an anti fieldsports forum yet ironically the majority of your support is in the best interests of commercial shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpredder Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 17 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Any free ranging chicks of the likes of Galliformes and Anatidae that eat even a single piece of lead shot will die whether directly or be predated on due to sub-lethal effects impacting on their survival. A chick eats a pellet, it is killed by a predator shortly afterwards, and Conor would apparently attribute the death to sub-lethal effects of lead poisoning. No consideration of whether predation occurred two minutes, or two days, or two weeks after the pellet was eaten. Hmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 I agree. If a bird was shot with steel, but had ingested a lead pellet, what killed it? How could any game supplier say that the bird was lead free? Are they opening up every bird to check on cause of death? Are they X-raying birds? The answer is neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 (edited) 34 minutes ago, McSpredder said: 18 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Any free ranging chicks of the likes of Galliformes and Anatidae that eat even a single piece of lead shot will die whether directly or be predated on due to sub-lethal effects impacting on their survival. A chick eats a pellet, it is killed by a predator shortly afterwards, and Conor would apparently attribute the death to sub-lethal effects of lead poisoning. No consideration of whether predation occurred two minutes, or two days, or two weeks after the pellet was eaten. Hmm. ANY chick that eats a lead pellet will die....... Why dont we get some evidence for this outlandish claim ? It shouldnt be hard to 'prove' that this is so , should it ....? And also , I keep hearing this 'cumulative' effect of lead , whilst not doubting that lead can stay in the body for decades perhaps, what about the vegetables we eat, and the water we drink, the air we breathe , all containing minute quantities of lead, and accepted as 'safe' but then we are told there is no safe level of lead ? An interesting thing I read the other day was accepted blood levels of lead within the EU. Blood lead levels should not exceed 5 ug/dl ( 5 micrograms per decilitre) in children, but adults do not exhibit symptoms under 50 ug/dl, a high level is considered to be 60+ ug/dl. The children at the centre of the Flint MH 'poisoning' scandal tested +/- 1 over or under the 5 ug/dl . Basically, even though the people of Flint consumed water and vegetables with a higher concentration of lead than other areas , their blood lead levels were still not excessively high. This study on the consumption of game meat also shows that there is little difference between those who eat it regularly, and those who dont eat it at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9780142/ Edited April 23 by Rewulf Its decilitre not decalitre ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 2 hours ago, Gordon R said: Conor O'Gorman - I assume that you can read, so you answer is deliberately wrong. I asked how you can ensure that a bird shot with steel, had not previously ingested lead shot and therefore claimed to be lead free. Your track record of avoiding a straight answer is well established. That isn't a personal attack, but merely a fact. I will not respond to any of your posts on this thread. i feel embarrassed for you. Please don't offer one of your famous "phone calls". There are background levels of lead in all foodstuffs. The podcast explores the game meat market and labelling much better than I can do it justice in writing. You would be best listening to the podcast. As per the OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Rewulf - decent post with a very interesting link. Can I suggest you would be best listening to the podcast. It has little or nothing of import to say and was just a bit amateurish. However, it will the the best part of an hour of your life, which you will never get back. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted April 23 Author Report Share Posted April 23 36 minutes ago, Rewulf said: ANY chick that eats a lead pellet will die....... Why dont we get some evidence for this outlandish claim ? It shouldnt be hard to 'prove' that this is so , should it ....? And also , I keep hearing this 'cumulative' effect of lead , whilst not doubting that lead can stay in the body for decades perhaps, what about the vegetables we eat, and the water we drink, the air we breathe , all containing minute quantities of lead, and accepted as 'safe' but then we are told there is no safe level of lead ? An interesting thing I read the other day was accepted blood levels of lead within the EU. Blood lead levels should not exceed 5 ug/dl ( 5 micrograms per decilitre) in children, but adults do not exhibit symptoms under 50 ug/dl, a high level is considered to be 60+ ug/dl. The children at the centre of the Flint MH 'poisoning' scandal tested +/- 1 over or under the 5 ug/dl . Basically, even though the people of Flint consumed water and vegetables with a higher concentration of lead than other areas , their blood lead levels were still not excessively high. This study on the consumption of game meat also shows that there is little difference between those who eat it regularly, and those who dont eat it at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9780142/ The impact of lead shot on birds is conclusive and if you don't see it like that, fair enough. The GWCT has reviewed all the evidence and continues to do so. They are the experts and I trust their advice - which underpins the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. If you think you know better than scientists in the UK and worldwide studying lead poisoning in birds, fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 3 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Rewulf - decent post with a very interesting link. Can I suggest you would be best listening to the podcast. It has little or nothing of import to say and was just a bit amateurish. However, it will the the best part of an hour of your life, which you will never get back. 🙂 I have some spaghetti to knit, it will be a far better use of my time Heres another interesting study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935116309458 A multiple linear regression analysis (containing the covariates sex, age, hunting, wine drinking, game meat consumption, tobacco smoking, shooting range, and occupational exposure) found an association with hunting (Pb-blood almost double in hunters) and wine drinking (40% higher in drinkers) but not with consumption of game meat or other parameters. Whether the higher Pb-blood level was due to inhalation of lead fumes while shooting with lead ammunition, to handling lead ammunition or both could not be ascertained. 6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: They are the experts and I trust their advice - which underpins the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting. If you think you know better than scientists in the UK and worldwide studying lead poisoning in birds, fair enough. I dont think anyone doubts that there a few birds that suffer death or ill health due to lead shot ingestion, although we cant put a number on it, or any real context, as no one can find these birds to examine them or decide what actually killed them. Like I said, why dont we do a study on some chicks, in a controlled environment , with some lead 'minefields' around them ? But even so , the numbers , whatever they are, pale into insignificance when other deadly factors are introduced, fox, raptor, badger and domestic cat predation, must account for 100s of millions of wild birds every year. Wind farms and game hunting, millions more... Its a peculiar argument to seek to control something, that perhaps accounts for what could be a few thousand lead poisonings , against a backdrop of game shooting where countless birds are shot , the justification of which is 'We are going to eat them all' I dont believe it , the antis dont believe it, the general public wont believe, and most of all Conor , you dont believe it either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 23 Report Share Posted April 23 Rewulf - on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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