410 Proofed 1100KG

[softlad]

Hi all, first post. Just got back into shooting after many years away. I'm a AYA fan as they are what I was brought up on.

Just purchased a AYA double barrelled 410, 75.2mm chambers rated at 1100KG, made 1971 if Ive read my marking correctly.

At the time of purchase, I also bought a slab of Lyavale supreme game 73mm 16 grams shot size 6. They were recommended at the shop. 

Is the barrel okay with these?? If I recall a magnum cartridge requires a 1400KG proof or am I just over thinking this too much?? 

Thanks in advance for any advice. 

[wymberley]

Welcome to PW.

No you're not over thinking it as it's a perfectly sensible question. As you bought both at once, you could put them on the spot and ask the shop.

[softlad]

Thanks for that, they looked at the markings before suppling the cartridges, so I never gave it a thought TBH. It was only on cleaning the gun that I thought 1100KG was a tad low.

But, since I first posted Ive dropped Lyavale an email and I assume they will respond and if anything, they'll be more on the side of caution. Oh on the box its says:

MUST BE USED IN A NITRO PROOF PRESSURE OF 850 Bars or more, so thinking about it Im sure a search on the web will convert it. Ill be back  

[softlad]

4 minutes ago, softlad said:

Thanks for that, they looked at the markings before suppling the cartridges, so I never gave it a thought TBH. It was only on cleaning the gun that I thought 1100KG was a tad low.

But, since I first posted Ive dropped Lyavale an email and I assume they will respond and if anything, they'll be more on the side of caution. Oh on the box its says:

MUST BE USED IN A NITRO PROOF PRESSURE OF 850 Bars or more, so thinking about it Im sure a search on the web will convert it. Ill be back  

Well before I can convert I need to know what the 1100KGs means?? Theres no conversion I can find for straight KGs to Bars!!! Here we go down the rabbit hole lol.  

[wymberley]

2 minutes ago, softlad said:

Well before I can convert I need to know what the 1100KGs means?? Theres no conversion I can find for straight KGs to Bars!!! Here we go down the rabbit hole lol.  

KGs is a weight - can be confusing because - Italy for example - some countries mark the barrels with their weight. Try Kgs/square cm. One bar equals 1.01972 Kgs/ square cm - so, like for like in practice. I'm avoiding answering your original question as I know nothing about 410s not having shot one for some 70 years.

[softlad]

Okay this is where this topic goes mad. If they rated in KGs we can assume (can we) that they used a metric unit of KG force for area?? Im really assuming here.

So 1bar = 1.01972 KG/CM2 which would = 866,762, lets call it 870 so 850bars = 870 KG if Ive got this anywhere even close to the mark. But some old 410s on the old thread was rated at 850KG, is this starting to make any sense to anyone?? Its cant be MM2 as it makes the maths non workable. 

Lets see what Lyavale come back with. 

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

KGs is a weight - can be confusing because - Italy for example - some countries mark the barrels with their weight. Try Kgs/square cm. One bar equals 1.01972 Kgs/ square cm - so, like for like in practice. I'm avoiding answering your original question as I know nothing about 410s not having shot one for some 70 years.

Just done it  many thanks, do you think its make any sense?? 

[wymberley]

Please don't act on this for the reason given earlier. However, it looks as though you have a albeit slightly undersize 3" chambered gun proofed at 1100 whatsits and also some either slightly oversized or undersized I know not which 70mm or 76mm cartridges which require a gun proofed at 850 different whatsits. My earlier request remains valid, but I believe the 850 would indicate a non magnum proof requirement.

[wymberley]

For some reason for your last post what is now above, 'lets see what......with' did not appear on my screen, but is there now. No, I don't think that it makes sense as for all intents and purposes one bar equates to one kg/square cm

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, All the info on 410 side by sides the 77mm cartridges would need a 3 inch chamber, The AYA 410 i am sure is 2 3/4 inch, You may need to consider a different shotgun rather than your AYA if you want to use a 3 inch cartridge

Edited May 16 by oldypigeonpopper

[softlad]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Please don't act on this for the reason given earlier. However, it looks as though you have a albeit slightly undersize 3" chambered gun proofed at 1100 whatsits and also some either slightly oversized or undersized I know not which 70mm or 76mm cartridges which require a gun proofed at 850 different whatsits. My earlier request remains valid, but I believe the 850 would indicate a non magnum proof requirement.

Yeah, what you said and thank you. 

Not even fired it yet as getting the stock back into A1 condition with walnut oil. I'll get back with Lyavale response. I would have loved to see the 1400KG mark and TBH I should have looked more; you never learn when a new gun is put under your nose. But ATM Im assuming the 1100KG will be fine for anything I want to pop into it. But such topics goes to prove one thing: How many folks pick up a gun and really think about what cartridge they are using?? I can remember using 32 gram when a 29 made my life so much easier and same results. 

[wymberley]

3 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, All the info on 410 side by sides the 77mm cartridges would need a 3 inch chamber, The AYA 410 i am sure is 2 3/4 inch, You may need to consider a different shotgun rather than your AYA

I thought that the cartridges were 73mm. Although I KNOW not, with a proof requirement of 850 would these be a 70mm designate as per a 67.5mm 65mm 12 bore?

[softlad]

6 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, All the info on 410 side by sides the 77mm cartridges would need a 3 inch chamber, The AYA 410 i am sure is 2 3/4 inch, You may need to consider a different shotgun rather than your AYA if you want to use a 3 inch cartridge

Hi, Ive just used the micrometre a cartridge and its just over 70mm in total . They fit lovely. The box says 3" but min chamber 73mm. On the barrel it says 76.2 I can post pictures. The dealer said it was 3" chambers and I even said are you sure, he looked again and confirmed. 

[wymberley]

4 minutes ago, softlad said:

Hi, Ive just used the micrometre a cartridge and its just over 70mm in total . They fit lovely. The box says 3" but min chamber 73mm. On the barrel it says 76.2 I can post pictures. The dealer said it was 3" chambers and I even said are you sure, he looked again and confirmed. 

Don't forget that the given length of a cartridge refers to its open (fired) length.

[softlad]

18 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I thought that the cartridges were 73mm. Although I KNOW not, with a proof requirement of 850 would these be a 70mm designate as per a 67.5mm 65mm 12 bore?

Yep agree they are just over 70mm and must have a chamber of at least 73mm and a rated proof of 850 Bars min. 

Edited May 16 by softlad

[oldypigeonpopper]

11 minutes ago, softlad said:

Hi, Ive just used the micrometre a cartridge and its just over 70mm in total . They fit lovely. The box says 3" but min chamber 73mm. On the barrel it says 76.2 I can post pictures. The dealer said it was 3" chambers and I even said are you sure, he looked again and confirmed. 

Seems your good to go

[softlad]

2 minutes ago, softlad said:

Yep agree they are just over 70mm and must have a chamber of at least 73mm and a rated proof of 850 Bars min. 

Being 100% honest yes I had forgot, thanks again. 

We have a very good gun smith close by Roy Martin. His son Edward is a really nice lad, well chap. Being paranoid now Im going to nip it across tomorrow or Saturday and let him take a look. I'll let you know the outcome.  

[softlad]

7 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Seems your good to go

Lets hope so, BUT paranoia as now set in lol. For what it takes for me to nip it to the Gun Smiths I going to do that. Better to be safe. The problem ATM is Im starting not to trust anything in this world, maybe getting old but nagging doubt always seems to win    Even though this was purchased from a respected Gun shop the doubt is set in and will not go until I get the full its this that or the other from Edward or Roy.  

[Old Boggy]

Welcome to pigeon watch and I sincerely hope that your gun is proofed/chambered for your proposed cartridges. 

Look forward to the outcome and thanks for posting, as many .410 users on here will find this interesting. 

Look forward to your future posts.

OB

[enfieldspares]

My AYA .410" No4 is 3" aka 70mm 76mm chamber. There is no such thing as a 2 3/4" length .410" cartridge.

Edited May 16 by enfieldspares

[oldypigeonpopper]

4 minutes ago, softlad said:

Lets hope so, BUT paranoia as now set in lol. For what it takes for me to nip it to the Gun Smiths I going to do that. Better to be safe. The problem ATM is Im starting not to trust anything in this world, maybe getting old but nagging doubt always seems to win    Even though this was purchased from a respected Gun shop the doubt is set in and will not go until I get the full its this that or the other from Edward or Roy.  

Hello, get them to use a chamber guage which every RFD should have

[oldypigeonpopper]

2 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

My AYA .410" No4 is 3" aka 70mm chamber. There is no such thing as a 2 3/4" length .410" cartridge.

Hello, 70 mm is not 3 inch , all the 410s i had could only use 2 1/2 inch cartridges, to be honest i would be prepared to buy a 410 with 3 inch chambers

[London Best]

10 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

My AYA .410" No4 is 3" aka 70mm chamber. There is no such thing as a 2 3/4" length .410" cartridge.

Half right! 
3 inches is 76.2 mm. 
But you are right, there is no such thing as a 2 3/4 (70mm) .410 gun or cartridge.

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, softlad said:

Hi all, first post. Just got back into shooting after many years away. I'm a AYA fan as they are what I was brought up on.

Just purchased a AYA double barrelled 410, 75.2mm chambers rated at 1100KG, made 1971 if Ive read my marking correctly.

At the time of purchase, I also bought a slab of Lyavale supreme game 73mm 16 grams shot size 6. They were recommended at the shop. 

Is the barrel okay with these?? If I recall a magnum cartridge requires a 1400KG proof or am I just over thinking this too much?? 

Thanks in advance for any advice. 

Just shoot it, no factory cartridge will get anywhere near proof pressures and even the oldest of shotguns can take much more than proof pressures before damage starts occurring. The chamber length of your gun is longer than the case length, that's really all that matters.

[martinj]

Yes to the above, if the cartridge fits the chamber length; the gun should be proofed to take the cartridge pressure (with a safety margin)

[softlad]

45 minutes ago, London Best said:

Half right! 
3 inches is 76.2 mm. 
But you are right, there is no such thing as a 2 3/4 (70mm) .410 gun or cartridge.

I can guarantee that when measured with a micrometre the cartridges full length is a tad over 70mm , 70.20mm and made for a min 73mm chamber but its a 3inch cartridge on the box like you say.   Ive never known a 2 3/4" 410 also. 

51 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

Just shoot it, no factory cartridge will get anywhere near proof pressures and even the oldest of shotguns can take much more than proof pressures before damage starts occurring. The chamber length of your gun is longer than the case length, that's really all that matters.

Yep Im starting to feel to the same. Oh many thanks for all the comments, great forum, thanks folks.