Mungler Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 49 minutes ago, Gordon R said: You need to press the "enter" button. Automakers change course on EV strategies | fDi Intelligence – Your source for foreign direct investment information - fDiIntelligence.com EV euphoria is dead. Automakers trumpet consumer choice in U.S. Toyota, Ford and Volvo to name just a few more. I’m surprised Oowee couldn’t find any of those search results but only alighted upon results that everything was rosey in the EV garden - he should probably email the accounts department of VW all the positive EV news and reports, because I’m sure it will ease the lay offs and factory closures. Net Zero has become exposed as a financially crippling ideological crusade. The games up and the economic pigeons are coming home to roost. Don’t forget to keep an eye on Germany and its slow motion implosion. The EU will be next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 35 minutes ago, Mungler said: I’m surprised Oowee couldn’t find any of those search results but only alighted upon results that everything was rosey in the EV garden - he should probably email the accounts department of VW all the positive EV news and reports, because I’m sure it will ease the lay offs and factory closures. Net Zero has become exposed as a financially crippling ideological crusade. The games up and the economic pigeons are coming home to roost. Don’t forget to keep an eye on Germany and its slow motion implosion. The EU will be next. This! It is utter insanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 Just now, Mungler said: I’m surprised Oowee couldn’t find any of those search results but only alighted upon results that everything was rosey in the EV garden - he should probably email the accounts department of VW all the positive EV news and reports, because I’m sure it will ease the lay offs and factory closures. Net Zero has become exposed as a financially crippling ideological crusade. The games up and the economic pigeons are coming home to roost. Don’t forget to keep an eye on Germany and its slow motion implosion. The EU will be next. I'm surprised he couldn't find it because BMW's own website is full of their Hydrogen X5. I really can't believe BMW would be pushing ahead with this if discussions weren't taking place with the German government behind closed doors. Where is the sense in Germany allowing some of its biggest and most prestigious companies going to the wall in pursuit of some crazy woke fantasy that only benefits China? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Where is the sense in Germany allowing some of its biggest and most prestigious companies going to the wall in pursuit of some crazy woke fantasy that only benefits China? China has a massive head start on EV tech, R&D and Infrastructure including hoovering up all the rare minerals out of Africa years and years ago. The Chinese state saw the opportunity and grabbed it, and like all good authoritarian regimes forced EVs on their population as well as solar panels and infrastructure - but it worked for them because they didn’t need to talk to unions, town planners, swampy and his mates or health and safety - so factories, solar panels, charging stations, infrastructure all wanged in and super fast. Fair play, they got there first and over a decade ago and no one had free choice to chose otherwise in China and so it’s what it is. Germany cannot hope to go head to head with China in the EV market place and it’s only EU tariffs stopping the full battering of the German car industry. The best selling EV in China right now is the BYD Song which is an SUV (think Audi Q5 crossed with Porsche Cayenne) and (in China) costs $21,000 dollars or £16,000. I can’t think of a single car ever produced by the likes of BMW, MBZ, Audi ever costing under £20k new; indeed a quick Google tells me the cheapest new BMW available is a bottom of the range 1 series for £30k. Anyone want to tell me how Germany was going to survive that? It’s so obviously nuts but if you don’t understand money, economics or jobs and are ideologically driven it doesn’t matter right? As I said nuts and demonstrably so. Edited November 10 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 Just now, Mungler said: China has a massive head start on EV tech, R&D and Infrastructure including hoovering up all the rare minerals out of Africa years and years ago. The Chinese state saw the opportunity and grabbed it, and like all good authoritarian regimes forced EVs on their population as well as solar panels and infrastructure - but it worked for them because they didn’t need to talk to unions, town planners, swampy and his mates or health and safety - so factories, solar panels, charging stations, infrastructure all wanged in and super fast. Fair play, they got there first and over a decade ago and no one had free choice to chose otherwise in China and so it’s what it is. Germany cannot hope to go head to head with China in the EV market place and it’s only EU tariffs stopping the full battering of the German car industry. The best selling EV in China right now is the BYD Song which is an SUV (think Audi Q5 crossed with Porsche Cayenne) and (in China) costs $21,000 dollars or £16,000. I can’t think of a single car ever produced by the likes of BMW, MBZ, Audi ever costing under £20k new; indeed a quick Google tells me the cheapest new BMW available is a bottom of the range 1 series for £30k. Anyone want to tell me how Germany was going to survive that? It’s so obviously nuts but if you don’t understand money, economics or jobs and are ideologically driven it doesn’t matter right? As I said nuts and demonstrably so. Today I did a 300 mile round trip to go my Grandaughter's birthday We had a lovely day but the key thing is I DIDN'T have to make a two hour stop at a motorway services somewhere to charge my car. Two hours out of my life that I would never get back Next week we have to go to a funeral and that will be a 600 round trip. What would that be? Three? four? recharges at two hours a time? And that's if there is an empty, working charging point when you get there. My stepdaughter tells me most motorway service area charging points won't fast charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 Europe is dead to car makers. You cannot compete with the Chinese when your energy costs are 5x theirs due to government policy and incompetence. The reason. Byd Song is 'cheap' is the combined low cost of energy and labour (though labours costshave risen in China). The trouble is our and European governments don't want you to import affordable EV's that can replace most town cars (i.e. do 50miles to 100 miles a day, needing charged 1x a week and only very occasionally longer journeys requiring a mid travel charge but instead try to support our own makers who are making cars at horrendous costings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 4 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Europe is dead to car makers. You cannot compete with the Chinese when your energy costs are 5x theirs due to government policy and incompetence. The reason. Byd Song is 'cheap' is the combined low cost of energy and labour (though labours costshave risen in China). The trouble is our and European governments don't want you to import affordable EV's that can replace most town cars (i.e. do 50miles to 100 miles a day, needing charged 1x a week and only very occasionally longer journeys requiring a mid travel charge but instead try to support our own makers who are making cars at horrendous costings And still Minibrain wants to "go renewable"and "net zero" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 Just now, Stonepark said: Europe is dead to car makers. You cannot compete with the Chinese Not just the car makers. You can say the same for every manufacturing industry in the western world. We are sleep walking into financial ruin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 10 Report Share Posted November 10 (edited) 3 hours ago, Vince Green said: No, BMW are planning to launch hydrogen cars in 2028 Working in conjunction with Toyota. Mercedes also throwing a lot of R&D into hydrogen cars and has prototypes being tested Why would they be doing that if they believed EVs were a done deal? But im not going to do your research for you because you won't believe anyway. If EVs were such a great idea they would evolve naturally and customer choice would drive the transition. Why the need for draconian legislation? Why the need for any sort of legislation come to think of it? Good products sell themselves They don't work for most motorists, people don't like them, they cost too much, depreciate like mad and are inconvenient to charge. Plus the insurance is outrageous Oh and just for good measure, they are an environmental disaster. Where is the logic in German, French, British and American car manufacturers chucking away a hundred and twenty years of engine manufacturing expertise to produce and sell cars powered by Chinese lithium batteries? Unless there is some other agenda at play here? Manufacturers certainly BMW, Nissan, Renault and Toyota have long had hydrogen In their plans for cars. When I worked on the first strategy for ev's in 2005 this transition was in the plan. Ev's like the first ice vehicles are getting cheaper. Range is increasing. Hydrogen is just another transition, the same role out challenges that currently face ev's will apply. Fossil fuels are finite. At some point we have to transition. Edited November 10 by oowee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted November 11 Report Share Posted November 11 Good article herehttps://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/amp/ 2001 was when China kicked off into EVs. We missed that boat and quite probably because the European car industry was firmly anchored to combustion technologies. There has to be some transition to new fuel sources but it needs way better planning, implementation and consumer buy in. In the meantime all the tea leaves are telling me Europe is screwed and in decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 11 Report Share Posted November 11 10 hours ago, oowee said: Fossil fuels are finite. At some point we have to transition. Britain is sitting on a thousand years worth of coal. Coal makes benzine. The reason the powers that be want to get away from the fossil fuels we use now is because of who we currently buy them from. EVs still burn fossil fuels, they just do it remotely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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