BISMUTH SHOT

[FANNYRAT]

Can anyone till me what alloy is bismuth shot. Its coated in tin, but as to its make up? Is it a manufactures secret and is it heavyer than lead? ....

[Big_Sam]

Err Bismuth?

 

Its an element, not an alloy. Atomic number 83. Lead is atomic number 82, so Bismuth is actually heavier.

 

But it suffers from being brittle and not reacting well to chokes as lead.

[andrewluke]

bismuth may not be an alloy but bismuth shot is.

 

Eley Hawk have been at the forefront of development of Non Toxic loads for over two decades.

The initial development of the Eley Black Feather utilising a Tungsten based polymer proved

uneconomical and the performance of the material left much to be desired. Eley then developed

the Bismuth cartridge which has become the market leader in performance Non Toxic ammunition. Bismuth is a material based on a blend and mix of Bismuth (Bi) and Tin (Si).

 

It has a density of 9.3 against 11.3 for lead, this difference is minimal and the down range performance

of Bismuth is almost the same as lead with the added advantage being 12% more pellets by weight.

 

How is Bismuth shot produced?

Bismuth is a metal (Bi) alloyed with tin (Sn) to give similar characteristics to lead shot. Bismuth

shot is manufactured in-house by Eley Hawk using the Bleimeister or “short dropâ€

process, the same method Eley Hawk use to produce lead shot. The resultant shot

has similar properties to lead shot in a modern trap cartridge.

 

andrew.

[HEAD SHOT]

Just looking at an Eley diary and it describes Bismith as....A heavy metal that is alloyed with tin to provide the closest non toxic alternative to lead shot. The shot does not damage barrels or chokes, therefore does not require plastic shot cups.

 

That throws some light on things.

[MC]

bismuth may not be an alloy but bismuth shot is.

 

Eley Hawk have been at the forefront of development of Non Toxic loads for over two decades.

The initial development of the Eley Black Feather utilising a Tungsten based polymer proved

uneconomical and the performance of the material left much to be desired. Eley then developed

the Bismuth cartridge which has become the market leader in performance Non Toxic ammunition. Bismuth is a material based on a blend and mix of Bismuth (Bi) and Tin (Si).

 

It has a density of 9.3 against 11.3 for lead, this difference is minimal and the down range performance

of Bismuth is almost the same as lead with the added advantage being 12% more pellets by weight.

 

How is Bismuth shot produced?

Bismuth is a metal (Bi) alloyed with tin (Sn) to give similar characteristics to lead shot. Bismuth

shot is manufactured in-house by Eley Hawk using the Bleimeister or “short dropâ€

process, the same method Eley Hawk use to produce lead shot. The resultant shot

has similar properties to lead shot in a modern trap cartridge.

 

andrew.

 

You obviously copied this from an Eley marketing website, there is no way in this world that Eley are at the forefront of non toxic loads.

 

Bismuth loads are appalling to say the least. They may work on a flight pond or a duck drive on your local gameshoot but on the foreshore they are useless.

 

I have used all non toxic loads except ITM and bismuth is the worst. The Remington Hi speed and Nitro Steel take some beating they are awesome cartridges that I ahve used to great effect on geese and ducks out to 35-40yds. A range that bismuth can only ruffle feathers at.

 

Eley cartridges IMO have always been soft hitting and not very good at long range and the density of bismuth makes this worse.

[henry d]

MC - have you tried tin ??..................Don`t if you havn`t

[MC]

No I haven't, I use to think steel was bad.

 

Tin is even worse from what I hear. It will be Remington Nitro steel for me

[starlight32]

The most impressive is by far ITM over any.

 

Only problem is when you pull the trigger you see pound notes flying up the barrel

[Suffolk shooter]

Gotta go with the remington Shells. Good hard hitting cartridges.

 

Would like to be able to afford the other alternatives to Steel to try them, but to be honest happy with the performance so far.

 

SS

[tosspot]

ITM

 

Think i've got some "zinc" 3" up the shed only saw em the once never seen em again will hunt them out

 

only bismuth i rate is Alphamax in 3s

 

aint too keen on steel especially if shooting around a wooded pond, all those ricochets

 

but as starlight says, can't help but think that left an right just cost me £2 or so

[Kenzie]

ITM

 

Think i've got some "zinc" 3" up the shed only saw em the once never seen em again will hunt them out

 

only bismuth i rate is Alphamax in 3s

 

aint too keen on steel especially if shooting around a wooded pond, all those ricochets

 

but as starlight says, can't help but think that left an right just cost me £2 or so

Why?how many ricochets have you had?steel on wood doesn't make a great deal of ricochet noise does it?iv'e never heard any such noise in the last 5 or so years of using steel for roost shooting when using up steel loads up at the end of the season?

 

kenzie

Edited March 16, 2008 by Kenzie

[bob300w]

"Why?how many ricochets have you had?steel on wood doesn't make a great deal of ricochet noise does it?iv'e never heard any such noise in the last 5 or so years of using steel for roost shooting when using up steel loads up at the end of the season?"

 

With you there, I have shot numerous rabbits with steel, and I have never heard a richochet off of the ground either. The early Eley bismuth was rubbish, the shot broke up in barrel but they got it right later. My choice is ITM as well, kills equally as well as lead, but as has been said , the price is scary. Had some 3" tin, but as Henry says, don't bother.

Edited March 16, 2008 by bob300w

[anser2]

You are right Bob the new Bismuth ( up to 3s ) is ok and better than any steel I have used including the remmington sportsman , but it costs too much to be my main shell. Bigger bismuth shot do not seem so effective in my gun. ITM is better , but by far the best for long shots is hevi shot . Hevi shot out performs lead and ITM by miles .

 

I shoot about 450 non toxic shells a year at wildfowl ( 90% on the foreshore ) through an AYA 3 inch magmum and a Baikal 3 1\2 inch semi auto. My stock in trade shells in the Baikal for duck are Steel gamebore or remington sportsman 1 1\4 oz 3s or 2s for duck and winchester Drylok 1 9\16 oz BB or BBB for geese. In the AYA I use 1 1\8 oz gamebore 3s for duck and ITM 1 1\2 oz 1s or 1 1\8 oz hevi shot 3s for geese. The Baikal is a great gun as long as you have time to take the shot , usless for snap shots , thats when the AYA comes into its own in the half light.

 

The answer in useing steel is to use shot sizes at least 2 sizes and sometimes 3 sizes bigger than you would use in lead and use a big load. The patten would apear a little thin with such big shot but steel shoots a hell of a lot tighter than lead ( or bismuth ) I have taken the chokes down to I\C but find at 40 yards i am getting 80% + of the pellets inside a 30 inch circle with steel and hevi shot. Try finnishing off a wounded duck on the water with steel and you will see just how tight the patten is. But bismuth the patten is about 60% , same as lead.

 

A major problem I have is getting the type of non toxic shells after the middle of the season. My local gun****hs stock non toxic at the start of the season and when its gone its gone and will not order any more untill the next season. The only answer is to buy up as much as you can afford when its available. The season before last the only goose shells I could buy after November was Bismuth BBs and they were pretty awful. A lot of the pellets broke up on hitting a goose wing bone without breaking the bone. And lets face to be reasonably sure of retreving a goose on the foreshore you need to kill it stone dead or at worst break its wing. Its not a lot of good sendng it planing down a hundred yards off over creeks rapidly filling with the tide.

[Suffolk shooter]

Bismuth ( up to 3s ) is ok and better than any steel I have used including the remmington sportsman.

 

Have you tried the Remmington Nitro Shells Anser2, they really are good.

 

Regarding richoets with Steel, I have seen them myself on our club marsh whilst shooting at Snipe 20 yards in front as they lift. Hard tight spray on the ground, where bird was/is and then a larger soft spray another 15 yards after that. Might just be loose soil fragments from the first as I heard no noise, but??

 

SS

[Suffolk shooter]

I have just read an interesting article in American Rifleman (Jan 2007) on the subject of Non-Toxic Shot and below is a reproduction of the different types, Composition and Density (Grams per cubic centimetre) of each compared to Lead.

• Lead (Reference Only) 94-97% Lead, 3-6% Antimony - 10.0-11.1
  
• Iron (Steel) - Iron and Carbon - 7.9 Various Manufacturers
  
• Iron-Tungsten-Nickel >1% Iron, Any proportion of tungsten, upto 40% Nickel - 12.0 EnvironMetal (Hevishot)
  
• Iron-Tungsten-Nickel62% IRon, 25% Tungsten, 13% Nickel - 12.0 EnvironMetal
  
• Tungsten-Bronze 51.1% Tungsten, 44.4% Copper, 7% Nickel and 21% Iron 12.0 Remington (Wingmaster HD)
  
• Tungsten-Iron-Copper-Nickel 59% Tungsten, 13% Copper, 7% Nickel and 21% Iron 12.0 Olin/Winchester (Xtended-Range Hi-Density)
  
• Bismuth-Tin 97% Bismuth, 3% Tin 9.4 Bismuth Cartrdige Co.
  
• Tungsten-Matrix 95.9% Tungsten, 4.1% Polymer 10.4 Kent Cartridge Co.
  

In the article it explains how Charles Askins (1929) carried out tests and stated that 6lbs of energy was required to kill a large duck such as Mallard. That 6lbs of energy was delivered by four pellets hitting the vital body cavity of the duck, each carrying 1 1/2 lbs of energy, and using that rule, shooting a common No. 4 lead-shot duck load with a muzzle velocity of 1250 f.p.s, the pellets would run out of suffcient energy at 85 yds. A typical 2006 steel duck load using No. 2 steel pellets at a muzzle velocity of 1400 f.p.s. loses lethal velocity at 75 yds, and that Kent cartridges No 2, 3.5" steel load at a blistering 1625 f.p.s runs out of steam at 80 yds.

 

The greatly increased velocity drives even lighter than lead pellets with sufficient velocity to make them theoretically lethal to waterfowl farther than anyone can reliably shoot. Theoretical pellet energy that the computer says is suffcient to kill at 80 yds does not account for thinner patterns at those ranges, inaccurate shooting, and most important, that lighter steel pellets often do not penetrate suffciently to deliver the 6lbs of energy needed for a clean kill.

 

SS

[tosspot]

Steel does ricochet much more easily than lead i can assure you, whether you hear it is neither here nor there

 

A fellow syndicate member on an inland wildfowl shoot was shooting steel in a blind adjacent to a couple of large ash trees and peppered an area at quite an angle away from the direction he was shooting, so he stopped shooting steel in that situation

 

a quick cut and paste

 

Does steel ricochet worse than lead?

 

There is an increased danger of ricochets with steel

shot over lead or other forms of non-toxic shot.

Steel shot has a lower deformation capacity and

therefore the drop in velocity after impact on a hard

target is much less than with the softer lead. The angle

of ricochet is also much larger than with lead. For

example, at a range of 20m a standard steel shot of

pellet size No.4 fired at a concrete surface at an angle

of 26 degrees was measured to ricochet at an angle of

6 degrees 20 minutes compared with lead’s 0 degrees

5 minutes.

The problems of ricochet, according to a study

carried out by the National Proof House at Gardone,

Italy, are increased not only because steel is 5 to 8

times harder than lead but also because, after impact

against hard surfaces, lead shot breaks up and can lose

10 to 90% of its original weight. Steel shot, although

deformed, retains practically all its original weight.

With lead, ricochet after impact against a very hard

surface at 20m directly in front of a shooter, would

present a low risk to the shooter or to others close by:

the pellets would be completely smashed. With steel

under the same circumstances, the pellets, after only

being moderately deformed, arrive back and past the

shooter by up to 20m. In these circumstances the

danger area for injury from ricochet from steel is greater

than with lead.

It is important that hunters be aware of this facet of

using steel shot. Be extremely careful when dispatching

wounded ducks on the water.

A good and responsible hunter would always make

sure that the area behind the duck was clear of other

people

 

TP

[bob300w]

Manufacturers reccommended selling prices for Remington cartridges:

Sportsman High speed steel 70mm/34gm = £59/100

Nitro-steel galvanised steel 70mm/34gm = £90/100

Wingmaster HD Tungsten/bronze/iron 70mm/34gm = £339/100

 

Scary or wot? Wingmsater, £3.39 a shot!! I can buy a duck ready to eat in Lidl's for that price!

Let's all hope that something new and a sensible price is found before we all have second mortgages to pay for a day on the foreshore.

[anser2]

Suffolk shooter i have not used the remington nitro steel. I shoot a fair bit of steel and its a question of cost. For day time decoying I use gamebore 1 1\4oz 3s at 24p a shell , but for high flighting mallard i use Remington sportsman 3s ( UK2s ) at 42p a shell. The Remmington nitro steel works out at aprox 90p a shell and as i fire over 350 shells at duck most seasons thats a bit pricy ( £315). I might try an odd box next season though.

 

I hit on a bargin last month when I found some tungstone 3 inch 1 1\2 oz at £9.40 a box of 10 ( they are usualy about £19.00 ) a great shell for geese. So I bought all his stock.

Edited March 17, 2008 by anser2

[deer stalker]

Yes bismuth is slighty lighter but just think

 

PROS

no heavy plastic wad needed!

no steel proof barrels needed!

no magnum proof chambers needed! (BUT STAY IN THE PROOFING OF THE CHAMBERS!!!!!!!!)

no steel proof chokes needed!

fiber/felt wad

non-toxic

heavyer than steel/tin

shoots were much like lead

no barrel damage

no choke damage

large slection of shot sizes BB-for your geese/3,4,5-for ducks/6,7-teal and snipe other small game.

CONS

But it's not cheep but not stupid ELEY GRAND PRIX=£23.00 ELEY MAGNUMS 3'' in BB=£49.50

[Floating Chamber]

Sorry, is this a set-up?

Edited March 18, 2008 by Floating Chamber

[anser2]

What do you mean Floating Chamber ?

[MC]

Anser2,

 

If you buy your cartridges from John Forsey then the 31/2" nitro steel are 14.99 a box of 25.

 

The hi speed steel are as good they are not galvanised though.

[Floating Chamber]

What do you mean Floating Chamber ?

 

Sorry, I will explain. I was the victim of some over-zealous moderation and an outrageous pm.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Floating Chamber